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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Feb 8, 2023 17:21:22 GMT 1
I do like the idea of refining more with Rage/Fury/Reckless since that's a core component of how I wanted my PC to function in the first place, especially because it makes someone like Daeron capable of an upset vs. a Manfryd or Rennifer who would otherwise beat him in most situations.
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Post by Roland Cordwayner on Feb 8, 2023 22:36:08 GMT 1
I like the "stances" being folded in to an action, as that's consistent with the core rules and limit some of their use/abuse.
Trying to be firm and constructive below, conscious we've had issues in the past on communication. Appreciate your hard work on the game - I've done this too and know it is a labour of love.
Coordinate Sympathise with Laena on Coordinate.
Resist
how is this inteded to differ from Withdraw, mechanically and thematically?
Convince: "--Generally concerns making people believe your version of events."
- Isn't convince also about convincing someone to do something? I might believe someone about something, but they're trying to convince me to take action?
Tweaking characters When we change rules, we should be able to tweak characters. Otherwise we end up with dice that were intended to be used with powerful weapons/agility tests post knockdowns (for example) that don't do what we previously thought. Same for qualities.
I've found this frustrating in the past (particularly given long gaps between gaining XP and destiny refresh, and lack of schedule on either), and would find it frustrating again.
Fury
Pro things that will encourage character variety and special moments for characters like Daeron! Wary as ever on custom benefits, having Roland crushed in a combat by a previously unheralded NPC even with spending a destiny point. "Losing" a character to unbalanced custom benefits isn't fun and erodes trust.
Broad philosophical point: Fewer, focused house rules = better?
Adding more house rules adds to cognitive load/things many of us have to check. For example, tweaking falling from mount damage - this won't make a material difference frequently, so is it worth changing? Better to have fewer, more useful changes than lots of little tweaks. Sometimes I'm put off posting/engaging in an event, as I have to parse the event mechanics AND then check house rules. After work/parenting it can be a bit much.
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Post by Father on Feb 9, 2023 15:09:59 GMT 1
Mechanically (from memory), withdraw is just an action that gives back composure and usually either sets you back compared with standard influence or just drags out the intrigue endlessly. Intrigue in general assumes both participants actually has an objective, suppose Daeron wants to seduce Tanda so that he gets her scandalized and bethrothal broken by raging Eldon....his objective is clear, but if from Tanda's point of view he's just showing far too much attention to her than is proper, and she happened to sort of like that attention (without knowing why he's showering it on her).....what does Tanda do? Can just do the standard charm response which NPC's have been doing. Other times, say he wants to intimidate some other knight that sort of knows he can just walk away since it's in public, but Daeron is kinda scary even so, charm response?
Primarily thinking the resist technique could be a handy tool to have in those situations, most likely PC's wouldn't really bother with it.
Convince..is well, broad, it's a bit of gliding scale involved.
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Post by Father on Feb 9, 2023 21:06:56 GMT 1
As for coordinate, like a lot of things in the system (it needs a lot of house rules quite frankly), it's utterly broken as per RAW, have 6k4 will+coordinate, add at +8 about 90% of the time you can use coordinate.
Current version: Instead of it's use in the books, coordinate applies as follows (TN 12): 1. It may be used to grant a bonus equal to DoS scored to any one test made by another that involves logistics and organizing considerable number of people (such as house fortunes and certain warfare tests outside of battle). 2. Allow for an additional character to assist on a test made by another per 2 DoS.
So roughly +1 per DoS, which is fine, new rewrite which is trying to do more or less the same thing, only worse....well, easy conclusion, no point wasting more time on that one.
The same principle applies to maneuver, impose -1 per DoS flows better than -1D inflicted if you get 2 DoS, the other maneuver ideas may just be me getting carried away with stuff that maybe aren't needed. The overall idea to tweaking alcohol is a similar logic, although alcohol mostly comes up around events I can build around that -1D, so less of a priority. Maybe just toss in fatigue morning after for chronicle 2.
Fury...I'm inclined to lean towards decoupling it from reckless attack somehow. Possibly take CD penalty to do the extra damage (which wouldn't stack with reckless penalty) and require attack action to be a greater action (which would go well with reckless being greater action).
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Post by Father on Feb 11, 2023 10:24:10 GMT 1
Actually, coordinate from current version maybe should read like this: 1. It may be used to grant a bonus equal to DoS scored to any one test made by another that involves logistics and organizing considerable number of people (such as house fortunes and certain warfare tests outside of battle). 2. Allow for more characters to assist on a test than normal, the total possible extra bonus is 1 per DoS.
Which is mostly the same as present version, just now should do what I was trying to make it do. I can also see the case for a TN 9 being appropriate.
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Post by Laena Pyre on Feb 11, 2023 15:57:49 GMT 1
No complaints about the updated Coordinate. Particularly, I am pleased that it removes the annoyance in the current system that a 1 DoS success is literally indistinguishable from a failure, which never sat right with me. There is the slight narrative strangeness that 3 people who don't really know what they're doing are just as easy to coordinate as 1 super-expert, but eh. Handwave, handwave, mechanically it makes sense.
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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Feb 14, 2023 5:19:05 GMT 1
Now that I've had some time to think it over, I think that initiative actions should remain in some form, if for no other reason than to give Will (Courage) a reason to exist since it seems to be a pretty easily forgotten specialty.
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Post by Roland Cordwayner on Feb 14, 2023 8:11:48 GMT 1
Now that I've had some time to think it over, I think that initiative actions should remain in some form, if for no other reason than to give Will (Courage) a reason to exist since it seems to be a pretty easily forgotten specialty. Indeed, and/or rejigging characters given the mechanical changes.
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Post by Davos Dayne on Feb 14, 2023 18:20:34 GMT 1
Simple first... ManeuverI like the tactical aspect of it, but how often do we really have combats that aren't 1v1? I think the current houserule on it is sufficient. Reckless/FuryI like the addition of Reckless Charge as an alternative to making Reckless Attack a lesser action/persistent stance. Frankly, the biggest problem I have with Reckless is that it is too easy to mitigate the defense loss. There are numerous ways to raise your CD, but only a few ways to increase your Fighting roll. That makes it a useful and reliable option as opposed to the desperation tactic it was (I think) intended to be. The book Fury is terrible as written, so I definitely wouldn't want to go back to that, but the current version is kinda crazy. Some quick average damage numbers 7d6k5 & 5 damage/DoS base, against CD10 & AR10 Standard Attack | 4.6 | Aim & Attack | 5.7 | Book Fury | 5.0 | Reckless | 7.5 | Reckless Fury | 14.6 |
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Post by Roland Cordwayner on Feb 16, 2023 0:53:58 GMT 1
Should reckless charge be a thing? It is effectively granting an extra lesser action, as both reckless attack and charge are greater actions.
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Post by Davos Dayne on Feb 16, 2023 19:22:50 GMT 1
If it gives the penalties for both I am ok with it. It feels like something that should exist, and I don't think it would be too powerful.
Charge is typically only being used at the start of combat, so against a typical opponent even with +2 damage it is not likely to be a finishing blow, and the -5 CD is still pretty risky. If for ease of simplicity we have the -1D from charge and the +1D from reckless cancel out completely, that would be +2 damage for -5 CD on what is likely not going to be a fight determining attack. That seems ok, assuming Fury is changed.
Regarding Fury - what if it let you treat all weapons as powerful, and weapons that already powerful treat your strength as 1 higher? Maybe as a lesser action non-strike, kind of an alternative to Aim, and thus incompatible with a greater action Reckless? It would make the 2b str you need for Fury actually relevant.
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Post by Roland Cordwayner on Feb 17, 2023 13:58:10 GMT 1
Reckless charge is still effectively an extra lesser action.
- Reckless charge exacerbates the system's tendency towards "Rocket tag". - If you're facing multiple opponents, the CD penalty from Reckless charge is less of an issue (even if someone splits attacks). We've just not had many of those.
Adding powerful: not very useful/intersting as it is just a static bonus in some circumstances given the house ruled change? Powerful: You ignore up to your strength rank worth of defensive bonus from weapons (minimum 1), you also treat the weapon as having the piercing quality equal to your strength rank (minimum 1).
Again, people should have been offered the chance to tweak things when various rules have changed.
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Post by Davos Dayne on Feb 17, 2023 18:06:59 GMT 1
Re: Reckless Charge - The houserules have (mostly) eliminated the rocket tag aspect - attribute/specialization caps means you can't superstack Athletics and Strength with a Powerful weapon to be doing something totally ridiculous like 12 damage per DoS with a powerful weapon. Right now for an average combatant it is better to move and attack than charge - the +2 damage is outweighed by the -1D. +2 damage is good, but not so good that taking a -5 CD for it is a no-brainer. EDIT: to be clear I don't think it is overpowered, but I am not convinced it serves enough of a purpose to add yet another houserule.
Re: My suggestion for Fury & Powerful: I think the revised Powerful is still quite good (and eliminates the excesses of the original). Adding Powerful (with 2b Str) to the longsword attacks I did the numbers with above, and it increased the damage to an average of 6.7 Combined with Reckless it would be almost as good as the current Fury, so I would definitely make it an alternative to Aim or a greater action. Fury(powerful) + strike would be quite similar to what the original Fury was, but without the terrible -2d.
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Post by Father on Mar 3, 2023 0:13:14 GMT 1
An interesting take might be to let Fury give you damage bonus rather than +1D on reckless, but that +1D typically means an extra DoS which normally would trump +2 damage/DoS. Could also consider having it +1 with most weapons, but +2 with two-handed weapons (including adaptable ones wielded in both hands). More likely it's probably best to decouple fury from reckless somehow.
Reckless Charge is only a "free action" compared to book rules, which I don't really do, I compare to what we have now.
One thing that could dampen the effect of rocket tag with reckless is if you can forego iniative to start with a prepared counterattack, although this probably wouldn't help much since opponent could then move in defensively and then switch to reckless after you made your attack, so that would get complicated fast. Other option might be to make it so that if you win iniative and open reckless, your opponent is allowed to make his first attack right before yours (but nothing more fancy than a standard attack) using up that lesser action.
Adding that -5 penalty to all passive (physical) results would also open you up to more counterplays.
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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Mar 4, 2023 3:00:28 GMT 1
With Fury could we also consider a penalty to attack, but grant extra damage plus some other effect on a hit? That way there's an incentive to use it since you've already pointed out that most of the time an extra +1D is generally better than +2 damage/DOS.
Something like -1D, but also inflict an injury, +2 damage and knockdown effect, or +1 damage and 1 Shattering?
You could also scale it and have Fury I, II, & III and rework and incorporate aspects of Berserker into it just because that's another benefit that feels weird now that warfare has been overhauled.
There could also be penalties like inflicting a point of Fatigue when you enter/leave a Fury, or making an attack done while in a Fury vicious so that there are social penalties, much like going Brutal in a joust. It would be a good way to discourage overuse of Fury in tourney settings or in honorable combat, or maybe overdoing it in such settings can give a -1 to Chivalry?
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