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Post by Davos Dayne on Sept 25, 2021 16:36:48 GMT 1
While I would love to see the Riverlands stuff wrapped up (I'm not sure what 'Peace in our time' is waiting for), I don't feel like we are bogged down in the tourney at this point. If anything it was team making & assisting stuff that took a while, and we are past that now.
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Post by Father on Sept 25, 2021 17:00:57 GMT 1
Most of the tourney stuff is waiting for laggard PC's (Roland vs Preston simply slipped my attention net when it was posted).
Does matter a lot for Peace in our time whether or not there's a campaign to win the votes to geld Simon or not.
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Post by Father on Sept 25, 2021 20:29:10 GMT 1
This starts looking like a finalized product, toying with some phase 4 stuff granting Fire/Blood DoS (may not happen), hence the desire to launch it now. New mechanic:
-One action per faction per day in an open chronicle. -Events may grant DoS as rewards independently, these are added to your tally separately.
This can be done through the spreading of rumors as per the rumor system (requiring rumors to be written to go into the grapevine). -The base TN and mechanics is as with standard rumors, with a few caveats: --Praise for the members of a faction is less effective than to condemn the members of the opposing faction, therefore, DoS for praise only count as 1/2. --If making things up by using deception, your test will also be resolved against TN 9+Status+Chivalry/Virtue of target, on a simple failure, people do not believe your claims, on a critical failure, they will think you a liar. The same principle will apply for "True but unknown", but using persuasion as normal. --Add +3 to the TN if targeting non-special characters of the opposing faction.
Alternatively, you may instead seek to rub elbows with men and women of influence to win them over to your cause: -Audience TN 12 -Awareness (Empathy) TN 12 -Cunning (Logic) TN 12 -Simple Intrigue TN 12 --Gain DoS from the two lowest scoring tests. --A minor favor can be offered, granting +1D to all tests. --If instead offering a major favor, you gain another +2D to all tests. --Favors must usually be "paid off" before you may gain these bonuses again. --Influence or Glory may be spent to gain +1b to all tests (once per action) --Bonuses from Favors, influence and glory must be rolled separately, they will not be counted for the purpose of determining whether a critical failure occurs.
-Upon scoring a cumulative 3 DoS, you gain a faction point by writing a rumor to signify the shift. -For each faction point that you scored through accumulating DoS, +1 is added to the threshold needed to accumulate further DoS. -For determining critical failure or any other effects of a rumor, this TN increase does not apply. -If you overshoot the number of DoS required for another faction point, the excess DoS will be retained if they would have been given with the +1 TN increase. -The cumulative TN increase is removed at the beginning and end of an active chronicle. -A critical failure is generally considered a licence for the narrator to get creative, it will otherwise count as a 0 DoS result.
Assists and taking extra time: -Instead of taking an action to spread rumors or do politicking, you may either assist another or gain +1D on your next such action, subject to the normal limitations. -These bonuses are added separately when determining whether or not there is a critical failure.
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Post by Davos Dayne on Sept 25, 2021 21:21:55 GMT 1
Does matter a lot for Peace in our time whether or not there's a campaign to win the votes to geld Simon or not. I was under the impression that this was deemed to be not feasible, as hyperpartisan family members are likely to have significantly more influence over the relevant parties (Lords Blackwood and Bracken) than a handful of knights not even from the Riverlands. This starts looking like a finalized product, toying with some phase 4 stuff granting Fire/Blood DoS (may not happen), hence the desire to launch it now. New mechanic:I take it this is specifically about garnering Blood/Fire points? Or could it be used to influence people on other matters?
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Post by Father on Sept 25, 2021 21:30:11 GMT 1
You'd have to convince some Brackens/Blackwoods, or so it looks like. Makes sense to me that they have "veto power".
Yes, fire/blood, second part is to have an alternative to just go feed rumors into the grapevine (which can influence people to do and mean other stuff, underutilized and maybe a holdover from early days).
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Post by Davos Dayne on Oct 1, 2021 21:04:45 GMT 1
Option 1: Climatic Duel-You may challenge one of the 3 NPC's to a one on one duel, taking their spot if victorious. If we are considering option 1, should we wait for you to post who the top 3 NPCs are? Or should we do option 2 and then those below the 3rd NPC can challenge? -Enemy will use aim+attack each round. -At the end of each round, the enemy gains +1 attack. -Each time this bonus reaches +2, it is converted into +1 specialty rank -If the number of specialty rank exceeds the amount allowed based on ability dice, two specialty ranks are converted into an ability rank. If I am understanding correctly, the attacks would look like this: Round 1: 4D+2B+2+Aim = 7d6k4+2 Round 2: 4D+2B+3+Aim = 7d6k4+3 Round 3: 5D+2B+2+Aim = 8d6k5+2 Round 4: 5D+2B+3+Aim = 8d6k5+3 Round 5: 5D+3B+2+Aim = 9d6k5+2 etc. Do we have access to Cautious/Reckless? I presume no actions other than Aim & Attack, as this not a full combat? I presume we are still on horseback, and the relevant bonuses apply?
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Post by Father on Oct 2, 2021 11:18:20 GMT 1
Probably best to wait until I figure out the 3 NPC's if so.
It would be 4+2+2 4+2+3 5+1+2 (4D+3B, 2B ranks converted to 1D, 5D+1B) 5+1+3 5+2+2 5+2+3 5+3+2 5+3+3 6+2+2
Everything allowed in regular 1v1 combat is allowed unless otherwise specified. And it's on horseback, yes (reflected in enemy stats).
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Post by Father on Oct 5, 2021 21:13:35 GMT 1
Eh, I think I'll just put revamped Fire&Blood stuff on the back-burner and let any DoS gained in phase 4 events be cashed in at the beginning of chronicle 2.
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Post by Roland Cordwayner on Jan 15, 2022 14:29:27 GMT 1
Does having Reckless attack be a lesser action (via stances) rather than the Rulebook's greater action exacerbate "rocket tag" issues in the system, particularly when used with Furious?
Seeming like that to me from a review of some recent combats.
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Post by Davos Dayne on Jan 15, 2022 17:57:27 GMT 1
I presume you mean Fury (+2 base weapon damage when Reckless).
Without Fury: you gain on average 3.5 offense at the cost of 5 defense, which is definitely a losing proposition. True, you get the benefits before you suffer the consequences, but even if you inflict a wound you are taking a net penalty of 1.5 to your defense... though of course it's a one-turn penalty for a significant opportunity to inflict an ongoing penalty.
With Fury: basically you are shifting the scale towards your opponent taking a wound to negate the damage. You still lose in the short term, but are much more likely to gain in the long term. Makes Reckless into a possibly viable early-fight strategy, rather than a desperate last-ditch effort.
Side note: knowing how much more your opponent can take changes the calculus greatly. Being able to time your use of reckless as a finishing blow to evade the consequences is very powerful. This is especially true in duel to first blood, where there is a hard defined end point (a normal fight often has fuzziness stemming from variances in commitment). Knowing whether or not one more wound would push your opponent to a point where they will have difficulty exceeding your AR is another meta break-point.
Given that concealing information is more problematic than practical (which is a shame, incorporating the mental side of combat would be a welcome addition), I personally would err on the side of limiting Reckless attacks.
On the flip side, we don't really want fights to drag on, so I don't think we should get rid of it altogether, and, conversely, limiting Defensive might also be wise (as per the conversation about starting in stances).
I find myself being drawn even more to the idea of stance changing being a lesser action, and although not terribly realistic, for balance purposes make a 'balanced stance' a necessary middle step - you cannot go directly from reckless to defensive or vice versa.
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Post by Father on Jan 15, 2022 23:38:02 GMT 1
Presence of bonus die tends to make it more in the range of +4-5 rather than +3.5.
And there's also a huge difference between 4-6 base damage and 8+ with how DoS lines up. Requiring a lesser action to start using reckless/defensive stance, but a free action to maintain or go back to normal could be interesting.
Fury might also be sufficiently strong with just adding +1 base damage, or something like a flat +Athletics to damage.
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Post by Davos Dayne on Jan 16, 2022 16:15:22 GMT 1
Free action to revert to normal defeats the idea of making the penalties more persistent. Free to enter/maintain, Lesser to return to normal would make more sense to me, though 'lesser to change' is much simpler. I would also bring back 'starting in a stance', as there is now a cost to starting Defensive.
Though I feel like only certain character builds (notably Longblades 2) really rely on using a non-attack lesser action. Otherwise, what, you give up Aim? Doesn't seem like that big of a cost. On the other hand, giving up a round of attacking is too high of a cost. Hm.
I have thoughts about Fury, but it really can't be properly balanced when there may be pending changes to Reckless Attack.
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Post by Roland Cordwayner on Jan 16, 2022 17:14:52 GMT 1
Takes on whinging player hat, puts on playtest hard hat:
Fury - If it is shifted to Just + 1 damage: would then compare poorly to Weapon Mastery, particularly as Fury has a Strength 2B requirement (and strength is less useful under the house rules than the core rules, doesn't add to Powerful damage any more). - LBG II style buff might work (flat +X to damage), but as Davos says decision here depends on what's done with Reckless attack. - Above all said from a perspective that thinks some combination of Fury/Reckless Attack is perhaps a bit too strong as is, but keen not to cripple fury. The issue may well be with Reckless Attack rather than Fury.
Reckless attack - Stance shifting stuff adds complexity, think the gain isn't worth the extra barrier to existing + new players. I'll confess to liking a return to it being a greater action as that's easier to remember and closer to the core game's balance! - Extra action not being useful: aim or knockdown, or turns where you want to move? And gives people the option to maneuver you away or use a lesser action to move away from you (preventing you from Reckless Attacking next round). We just haven't seen a lot of Knockdown because lots of recent fighting has been on horseback.
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Post by Father on Jan 17, 2022 13:36:05 GMT 1
Off the top of my head, things that could be done (without stopping to consider whether any of them are good ideas):
Reckless/Cautious. -Must use a lesser action to activate (cannot be done after making an attack), but then applies until turned off, turning off could be a free action or require lesser action (also cannot be done after making an attack). -Cautious can be turned on/off as free action at the start of the turn, Reckless requires lesser action per turn it's used, could possibly be combined with a charge. -Cautious applies penalty to all active tests, but grants bonus to all passive test results. -Reckless applies penalty to all passive test results. -Reckless attack must either be a great action or as part of a charge.
Spur of the moment thinking: -Cautious, lesser action to activate, free action to turn off, must be done at the start of one's turn in either case, can be activated prior to testing iniative if one is aware of combat being about to begin, but bonus does not apply against any enemies with surprise (-1D then applies on iniative and forced to maintain it for 1st round of combat). -Reckless, can only be used with attacks that require a Greater Action, can use the greater action "Reckless Attack" to achieve the effect with a normal attack.
Options for Fury: -Grant the option of "Furious Attack" as a Greater Action, which is a regular attack with +2 base damage. -Adding a flat +4 (or +Athletics) is more of a capping the full effect, better at 1 DoS, same at 2 DoS, weaker at 3 and 4. -Change into grant +1 Base damage if "taken damage in excess of half health", an additional +1 if "taken damage in excess of full health". --Possibly toss in an extra boost against people on vindictive/prejudice/etc trigger list, or in combat triggered by drawback such as furious.
Comparing fury vs no fury, it does come down to Daeron's decision of wound vs not wound in the first round. Fury: R1: 19 damage would be 13 (Would probably make sense for him to take a fatigue for extra lesser to use Fury if he had to) R2: 29 damage would be 21 (Loss of aim wouldn't matter)
Daeron could go to 1/12-2 injuries vs 3/12-1 injury. Then R2: 1/12-2 injuries-1 wound vs 3/12-1 injury-1 wound.
With no fury, Daeron could take another 3 DoS hit with injuries bringing it to 2/12-4 injuries-1 wound, with fury, even a 2 DoS hit would require wound, but he could tank 3x2 DoS hits with injuries and health.
Although looking at Norren's rolls, they were on the high end, statistically one of his two attacks would have been a 2 DoS hit 60% of repeats. And aim+attack would alternate between 2 DoS and 3+ DoS in 50/50 distribution.
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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Jan 17, 2022 19:52:37 GMT 1
As a player what I like with Fury is that it provides an alternative option for knight builds that don’t focus on LBF I & II and other combat styles boosting CD.
If we are looking to rebalance it, perhaps something like treating hits from someone using Fury count as a Vicious weapon. That would basically remove its use from friendly or low-stakes combat and lend credence to the idea that if you’re just going nuts on someone that you’re pretty likely to cause mortal wounds.
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