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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Jan 23, 2022 0:15:05 GMT 1
I like the idea of alternatives to Maimed as I'd love to see Dennis return with a vengeance (Primary/Special character upgrade?), but it also fits in well with the original source material, especially concerning Jaime having to learn how to knight again without his good hand.
If you wanted to keep things simple you could just stick with the original book since those are pretty rough penalties to begin with. Otherwise if you wanted to add some complexity I like the idea of strong/weak-sword/shield arm but maybe drop the -2 CD for losing a strong/sword arm so as to add some variety and balance. For losing a foot I'd do either a -1b to stay mounted OR -2 on passive tests to be dismounted since it seems redundant and excessively harsh.
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Post by Father on Jan 23, 2022 0:28:26 GMT 1
Hmm, probably -2 since that applies to things like pull from saddle also.
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Post by Davos Dayne on Jan 23, 2022 0:43:17 GMT 1
I like the proposed changes - adds some interesting detail to something that occurs infrequently enough to not add a lot of complexity.
-2 CD loss for strong arm loss makes sense in that knights are not trained to use their shield with their weapon arm. Perhaps make it akin to a training penalty, so you can offset it with Shield ranks (each 1b removes 1 CD of penalty, does not stack with Shield Mastery). Regardless it should only apply if a shield is used.
Stay in saddle & dismount penalties don't stack, they cover different circumstances. I think they are fine as-is, though while mathematically -1b is roughly equivalent to 2, 1b of skill is only +1 to passive, so I think a -1 penalty would be a closer fit.
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Post by Father on May 6, 2022 16:03:57 GMT 1
Will have to revisit the reckless (or just reckless+fury) review.
Reckless fury combo may lead to too much damage overflow the way it currently is written, reckless +1D is occasionally necessary if you're outmatched or need to go for a desperate all out assault to swing the tide.
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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on May 11, 2022 19:25:42 GMT 1
Couple of ideas for changing Fury: -Change the action economy of it so that the benefit unlocks a new option Reckless Fury (Greater Action) so that it can't easily be combined with Move/Charge/Aim and doesn't require Reckless Attack to be modified since Fury+Reckless seems to be the biggest unbalancing aspect of Reckless.
-Make it a flat +x damage rather than have it scale up with DOS. On the lower end it still adds a nice damage bump and is worth taking as a Benefit, on the upper end it prevents massive damage overflow because the +1D from Reckless makes it fairly easy to get into the 4 DOS range for attack.
-I also like the idea of adding some social drawback aspects to it, like making it turn your weapon into a Vicious weapon would make it a fairly unacceptable benefit to use in things like duels of honor or friendly melees, much like going Brutal in a joust. When you're going on a bloody rampage and hitting someone as hard as humanly possible it should dramatically raise the odds of death/permanent injury anyway since it's not the type of attack that you can pull your punches on, much like hitting someone with a war lance/greatsword.
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Post by Father on May 14, 2022 13:33:25 GMT 1
Hmm, one option could be to:
Reckless options: -Make it Greater Action Attack. -Only allow with an attack requiring a Greater Action. -Apply penalty to passive results as well as CD. -Force a lesser action to be taken to "regain balance" to remove penalties (obviously not allowed after making a reckless attack).
Fury: -Decouple from Reckless and grant the ability to use "Furious Attack" that could: --Trade defense for Damage --Treat enemy defense/AR as lower --Make secondary attack tests which will boost damage of main attack depending on DoS. --Make multiple attacks but give enemy cumulative CD bonus against other attacks (and some sort of penalty). --Take a lesser action to make a will test vs TN 12+Disposition to "Get Angry" and get bonus damage when it works
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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on May 15, 2022 4:17:21 GMT 1
I think decoupling Fury from Reckless would bring Reckless back on par with Cautious, I also really like the idea of a character with Fury having to get hyped up to use it’s benefit. Maybe lower the DC for targets of Vindictive/Prejudiced/Nemesis/Furious?
This could also be a good time to revisit Berserker since half of it no longer makes sense given current warfare rules.
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Post by Father on May 15, 2022 8:36:06 GMT 1
If TN is 12+Disposition, someone you are unfriendly towards (-5 to -8 disposition) would be at TN 4-7. Hostile would be TN 3 or lower. But that could be a messy mechanic to use for that purpose.
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Post by Father on May 15, 2022 18:29:04 GMT 1
Methinks:
Cautious Stance (Free action): -Gain -1D penalty on attack actions and iniative tests. -Gain +3 bonus on Combat Defense and passive result against combat actions. -Effects last until the start of your next turn. -May be taken prior to making iniative if not surprised*
*Requires a post setting up combat where this is declared before rolls are made.
Reckless Attack and Reckless Charge (both greater): -Gain +1D bonus on the attack test. -Suffer -5 penalty to combat defense and -3 to passive results against combat actions. -Effects last until the start of your next turn. -Otherwise functions as standard attack and charge actions.
(Technically could combine the two...but that would seem stupid to me).
Fury: As a lesser action, you may attempt a will(courage) TN 9 test to enter a state of frenzy, gaining +1 to the next test to sustain it per DoS. -At the start of each subsequent turn, you may as a free action test again at a cumulative +1 TN to sustain your frenzy. -If your have a drawback that makes you susceptible to seek harm upon your foe given the chance, entering frenzy is a free action and you gain a +1D bonus to the tests. -When you end or fail to sustain your frenzy, you suffer -2 to all tests for the remainder of the scene. -Taking a point of fatigue removes this penalty.
While in a state of frenzy: -You may not receive any benefits from using the cautious stance. -On a successful attack, you treat your damage as if you had scored an extra degree of success. -You suffer a -2 penalty to combat defense. -You suffer a -3 penalty to passive results against knockdown, maneuver and goad actions.
Should also maybe throw in a general rule in combat that no benefit or circumstance can make an attack do more damage than an "unmodified" 4 DoS hit, although whether this should apply to the +2 from charging and the damage for getting thrown off a horse etc could also be a question for debate. Could get problematic if you're wielding a knife or other low base damage weapon and rely on knockdown and such to make it lethal.
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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on May 17, 2022 1:46:51 GMT 1
-3 seems like a big penalty for knockdown and maneuver.
Regardless, I think the Appleton melee would be a good place to do a test run of new Fury/Reckless mechanics given that it's pretty low stakes.
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Post by Father on May 17, 2022 10:42:58 GMT 1
I was thinking rest of Appleton melee could give more data on reckless+fury actually.
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Post by Father on Sept 22, 2022 13:02:41 GMT 1
I guess I'll go nerd about that chance TN here:
TN=Their rank+Your Fighting DoS
Quick resolution assumes noble style, so looking at 5 damage per DoS, and either 5 or 10 if you fall off. Can't remember if noble affects that last part.
Tertiary characters with AR 7, Health 9 (rank 5) are defeated upon taking 20 damage, which is 3 DoS+Fall, possibly 2 DoS+Fall. Secondary characters with AR 10, Health 12 (rank 4 and above) are on injuries or defeat upon taking 25 damage, which is 4 DoS+Fall, possibly 3 DoS+Fall. But since the one roll instead of 5 sets is based on some rough probabilities for a match to have such and such outcome, (i.e. The TN's are set such a way that a generic rank 3 vs rank 3 rolled 1000 times should have same number of wins, draws and losses as 1000 matches played out..it gets muddled).
The only real factor other than DoS scored (which fighting test DoS covers) that depends on jouster that wins is his damage per DoS, which is 4.5 rather than 5, so 18/22 instead of 20/25, still enough to defeat rank 5 and rank 4 respectively (but the little extra makes cumulative damage more likely to be an issue, but that's low likelihood to begin with unless the 3 DoS+ is raining and jousters stay in saddle through them).
That chance TN certainly shouldn't be any higher than existing formula, but making it go lower takes away the chance of some really, really nasty outcomes for the tier 3's...however small it is. So methinks the conclusion is that staying where it's at is fine.
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Post by Roland Cordwayner on Sept 22, 2022 15:31:44 GMT 1
I guess I'll go nerd about that chance TN here: TN=Their rank+Your Fighting DoS Quick resolution assumes noble style, so looking at 5 damage per DoS, and either 5 or 10 if you fall off. Can't remember if noble affects that last part. Tertiary characters with AR 7, Health 9 (rank 5) are defeated upon taking 20 damage, which is 3 DoS+Fall, possibly 2 DoS+Fall. Secondary characters with AR 10, Health 12 (rank 4 and above) are on injuries or defeat upon taking 25 damage, which is 4 DoS+Fall, possibly 3 DoS+Fall. But since the one roll instead of 5 sets is based on some rough probabilities for a match to have such and such outcome, (i.e. The TN's are set such a way that a generic rank 3 vs rank 3 rolled 1000 times should have same number of wins, draws and losses as 1000 matches played out..it gets muddled). The only real factor other than DoS scored (which fighting test DoS covers) that depends on jouster that wins is his damage per DoS, which is 4.5 rather than 5, so 18/22 instead of 20/25, still enough to defeat rank 5 and rank 4 respectively (but the little extra makes cumulative damage more likely to be an issue, but that's low likelihood to begin with unless the 3 DoS+ is raining and jousters stay in saddle through them). That chance TN certainly shouldn't be any higher than existing formula, but making it go lower takes away the chance of some really, really nasty outcomes for the tier 3's...however small it is. So methinks the conclusion is that staying where it's at is fine. Looks sane to me. If you wanted a small tweak you could make the injury chance based on the gap between your rank and your opponent's. "The lad shouldn't be riding in such company".
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Post by Father on Feb 8, 2023 14:25:17 GMT 1
I'm tinkering away since I like tinkering away, I'm not sure if much of this reaches implementation stage, but copypaste from present notes: Coordinate: -May be used in a situation where more than two people could reasonably assist on a test or the task is something that reasonably involves delegation. -Test against TN 9, adding +1 assist bonus to the test result per DoS. -The bonus is capped by the number of characters beyond 2 taking an action to assist on the test, or your rank in the ability being tested. whichever is lower.
Reckless/Cautious/Fury: -Reckless attack (Greater action) as per book. -Reckless charge (Greater action) as charge, but +1D and -5 combat defense. -Cautious attack (lesser) as per book. -Defensive position (free) +3 Combat defense until the start of your next turn if you make no attack actions on your turn, but -1 Movement and -1b training penalty on all tests.
-Alternative A: Can only use reckless or cautious stance on first round of combat if foregoing initiative. -Alternative B: Can declare use of reckless or cautious stance during initiative. -Alternative C: Can declare use of stance after knowing iniative result. --Optional: Include things like LBF into the options.
-Cut Initiative actions.
Maneuver-Dominate -Impose -1 penalty on all tests per DoS. -May force an opponent on foot to move a number of yards per DoS, but not through obstacles. -The obtainable DoS is capped by the number of yards you could normally cover with a move action (half if mounted).
Maneuver-Flanking. -Opposed by Agility (Balance) -On a success, grant assist bonus on an allied character's test against that opponent, must be used before the end of their next turn, and must be engaged with that opponent to make use of the bonus.
Maneuver-Control Space (on foot only) -Opposed by highest Agility (Balance) in group faced. -Use your result instead of passive agility (if higher, except on critical failure) for resisting flanking maneuvers until your next turn. -Per DoS: Widen the angle opponents must have in relation to each other to engage by 30 degrees. -The effect is capped by the number of yards you could normally cover with a move action.
Maneuver-Switch places. -Agility (Balance) TN 9 -This allows disengaging your opponent and have an ally step in, your ally must spend a greater action to take your place and cannot attack your opponent that turn if you already did so. --Typically a common tactic if having superior numbers in confined spaces, bringing fresh fighters to the front.
Assist in combat: See Maneuver-Flanking.
Maneuver requires that the environment is reasonably free of obstacles to free movement in most directions, a narrow corridor or a massed battle formation generally prevents the practicality, it also requires you to be engaged in melee. Maneuver on horseback uses Animal Handling (Ride) against opponents Animal Handling (Ride).
Ordinarily, a character can be engaged in melee by at most four other characters at any given turn, meaning no more than this number can make melee attacks or other such actions, an obstacle adjacent to a character (including ally) that blocks movement typically reduces this number by one. This can generally be seen as each opponent needing to be able to attack from positions at a 90 degree angle, so against an opponent backed into a corner, there would be just enough space for two attackers (before factoring in control space maneuver).
Show-off: Remove chivalry bonus. Add glory under some circumstances. Being unhorsed inflicts 3D damage that ignores armor, +1b per Strength rank of the opponent's mount. Defeat outcome: Air knocked out, typical consequence of defeat after being unhorsed in the joust, makes you unable to get back on your feet quick enough to challenge for a resolution on foot, for all other purposes, suffer -1D to all physical tests until the end of the scene.
Brutal and cheating option D cannot be combined?
Fury: -Need to enter rage? -Re-brand and give +2 bonus only with powerful and/or slow weapons?
Alcohol: -1 penalty on simple failure of attack, additional -1 per DoS of attack. Accumulates as -4 = -1D, -2 = -1b. +1D on courage tests when influenced.
Intrigue outcomes:
Concept: Degrees of success. In standard intrigue, this is treated as the difference in frustration forced (max frustration if taking defeat prior), minimum 1, between winner and loser. In simple intrigue, this is treated as the actual DoS scored.
Bargain: +25% value of services or +10% value of goods/coin received in return for your offering. -Generally both parties must be in agreement that a trade should be made, this covers the haggling.
Charm: -Cultivating friendship, for this to work, both must have friendship as objective, otherwise it does not work, in this case, there is no "winner", both improve disposition towards the other by as many steps as they take frustration. --False friend: Optionally, you may make a Deception (Act) test against their awareness (Empathy) instead of your normal free starting action, on a success, your own disposition is unaffected, on a simple failure, their disposition improves only by the DoS by which you win the intrigue. On a critical failure, the intrigue is cancelled and their disposition towards you worsens by two steps.
Convince: --Generally concerns making people believe your version of events.
Intimidate: --Generally concerns using fear and threats to get another to act in a certain way.
Incite: --Functions largely as Convince, with results being inflicting negative disposition towards another character per DoS.
Seduce: -Typically, the straightforward application of is reserved for situations where simple intrigue is sufficient (nobleman vs serving girl, king vs whoever he fancies, woman vs typical man). -It may be used with the friendship objective, in which case the flavor would be that of courtship and flirting without necessarily seeking or resulting in anything scandalous. --Maybe should have stronger effects, but with attached risk. -It may be used with a bargain objective, where carnal pleasures are usually worth a favor.
Taunt: --Generally concerns teasing, tricking or goading another into rash action.
New technique: -Resist, could possibly use different abilities such as cunning (logic), awareness (empathy), will (dedication/bravery), status(breeding/Reputation) instead of persuasion. --This would largely be used to resolve situations where one simply wants to determine how well efforts to influence a character actually works.
And since I feel like sharing ideas, a little too fundamental to do for this game, but if I started over, I think I would have made Status a separate mechanic and renamed the ability as "Authority" which anyone could put as much XP into as they please and works for intrigue iniative and so on. With the Status number running from 1 to 10 (Maybe even higher than that, since decoupling it from something that requires XP could let me use my treasured 1-3-6-10 series to make the big boss people truly be the big boss people), and maybe tack on benefits (+extra benefit slot for "positions") that allows you to do what high status ability previously did. I also maybe should have done what GRRM said he regretted not doing and make Jaeharys reform the nobility into having more distinct titles, like Dukes, Vicounts and Barons.
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Post by Laena Pyre on Feb 8, 2023 17:17:25 GMT 1
Coordinate: -May be used in a situation where more than two people could reasonably assist on a test or the task is something that reasonably involves delegation. -Test against TN 9, adding +1 assist bonus to the test result per DoS. -The bonus is capped by the number of characters beyond 2 taking an action to assist on the test, or your rank in the ability being tested. whichever is lower. I feel like this is a bit too heavy on the nerf-bat. Firstly, you need to have enough people with the same objective: 1 main actor, 2 assisting, 1 coordinator, 1-2 additional coordinated assisters. That's 5-6 people. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times that has been relevant. There's the opportunity cost of actually buying up Coordinate, rather than something directly useful. *And* you now need to be pretty much an expert in the thing you're trying to do? Haven't you heard the phrase "Those who can, do. Those who can't, enter management instead." ? I'm unclear as to if the 3rd-4th assisters actually add their assist bonus as well, which would make the difference between Coordinate being 'weak' or 'not even worth the effort of organising'. To give an example: In like 95% of cases, we won't have specialisations beyond 2, so I'll take that number. This means anything above a 14 is utterly worthless, as more than 2 DoS is wasted. I have a 55% chance of hitting 14 *just with my base Will*. I would literally be a better coordinator if I took my 2 specialty dice in Coordinate and moved them to a skill I'm more likely to want to coordinate, which is just bass-ackwards. While I do appreciate that 1 DoS actually does something with this idea, at the very least, I feel like the cap should be 'the number of characters beyond 2 taking an action to assist on the test, or the higher of your Coordinate and your rank in the ability being tested. whichever is lower. (Though I do admit that sentence takes a bit of parsing). At least that way, having ranks in Coordinate actually makes you a better coordinator, in the blue-moon circumstances where it actually is relevant. Intrigue outcomes: Concept: Degrees of success. In standard intrigue, this is treated as the difference in frustration forced (max frustration if taking defeat prior), minimum 1, between winner and loser. In simple intrigue, this is treated as the actual DoS scored. [...] New technique: -Resist, could possibly use different abilities such as cunning (logic), awareness (empathy), will (dedication/bravery), status(breeding/Reputation) instead of persuasion. --This would largely be used to resolve situations where one simply wants to determine how well efforts to influence a character actually works. While I may have missed some exploits, at first look, these all look like good changes. I particularly like 'Resist', as it does at least patch a gap in the system where only one side actually wants something, and the other is too polite (or the asker too powerful) to simply leave. Letting the resister have plenty of options, to make it easier for them (at the cost of not gaining anything) is absolutely the correct option, helping to close the gap a bit between the schemers and the scheme-nots. The only thing I'm side-eyeing is the DoS only counting 'frustration forced'. If it doesn't count 'frustration spent', then it encourages (even more than the system does already) blowing frustration near the end of a close Intrigue for +Ds to finish your opponent off, since under this system, it doesn't even affect the 'final balance', as it's not 'forced'.
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