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Post by Laena Pyre on Sept 13, 2018 20:32:09 GMT 1
But muh Criminal-Knights! Use a mirror, instead.
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OOC II
Sept 13, 2018 20:40:28 GMT 1
via mobile
Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Sept 13, 2018 20:40:28 GMT 1
The numbers advantage was a huge asset, particularly because of the increased orders. Extra units AND extra orders AND auto-win initiative AND get to use all your orders at once? Yeah, the quality of the commanders is not particularly being tested. This was pretty close to unwinnable for the Dornish, no matter who the commanders were. I think that was the point with this event and one of the reasons why A Dornish victory gave some extra rewards.
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OOC II
Sept 13, 2018 20:46:37 GMT 1
via mobile
Post by Aerion Flowers on Sept 13, 2018 20:46:37 GMT 1
Burn.
But yeah, the deck was stacked for sure. The added numbers should be good, but yeah Ashara is right. Auto win initiative, all orders at once, more orders, and more units mean its all but impossible to win.
I knew this going in, I just thought it would take 2 rounds to get trounced!
If we end up having more serious large scale combat, I think a slightly less powerful set up would be preferable, since 1500 vs. 2000 shouldn't be THAT one sided, but it's a very effective method without all the minutia.
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OOC II
Sept 13, 2018 21:09:25 GMT 1
via mobile
Post by Addam Velaryon on Sept 13, 2018 21:09:25 GMT 1
Ya rules defiantly should be tweaked for when real battles starts. I think the number of orders and taking them all at once are fine so long as it takes multiple DoS to send a unit into disorganized and initiative is rolled each turn.
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OOC II
Sept 13, 2018 22:55:56 GMT 1
Post by Father on Sept 13, 2018 22:55:56 GMT 1
Also a fast way to gloss over the part where this is just a training exercise mostly for show and it doesn't involve cavalry charges or other fun stuff.
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OOC II
Sept 13, 2018 23:05:54 GMT 1
Post by Ashara Starkwood on Sept 13, 2018 23:05:54 GMT 1
The numbers advantage was a huge asset, particularly because of the increased orders. Extra units AND extra orders AND auto-win initiative AND get to use all your orders at once? Yeah, the quality of the commanders is not particularly being tested. This was pretty close to unwinnable for the Dornish, no matter who the commanders were. I think that was the point with this event and one of the reasons why A Dornish victory gave some extra rewards. I agree- though I don't think it was intended to be THAT one-sided. That wasn't a battle, it was a massacre.
Ya rules defiantly should be tweaked for when real battles starts. I think the number of orders and taking them all at once are fine so long as it takes multiple DoS to send a unit into disorganized and initiative is rolled each turn.
I disagree. It would mean that whoever won initiative would have the huge advantage, though numbers would help mitigate that.
Imagine if the melee were resolved by having the captain roll initiative, and then whoever won had their entire team attack against a generic CD of 9 and each DoS on the attack caused an injury. Whoever went first could cripple another team immediately, even if that other team was ostensibly better. That's basically what happened here, except that one team was auto-given initiative.
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OOC II
Sept 14, 2018 0:05:51 GMT 1
via mobile
Post by Addam Velaryon on Sept 14, 2018 0:05:51 GMT 1
Except your not taking into account the ability to rotate units and that most characters don’t have warfare as high and with as many specializations as fighting.
Edit: also if there no penalty until the unit hits disorganized then the second place person has just as equal chance to defeat a unit as the first place person does.
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OOC II
Sept 14, 2018 0:49:01 GMT 1
Post by Ashara Starkwood on Sept 14, 2018 0:49:01 GMT 1
With this setup there is no rotation of units. Any unit could attack any unit. Also, most knights wouldn't be defeated by a 3 DoS hit, either.
Increasing how many hits it takes to disorganize only slows the problem down - instead of disorganizing/defeating X units a round, it's X/2 or whatever. Sure, slower, but whoever loses initiative is going to be losing units in the first round - either mitigating a numbers difference or exacerbating it.
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OOC II
Sept 14, 2018 2:27:49 GMT 1
Post by Addam Velaryon on Sept 14, 2018 2:27:49 GMT 1
Yeah rotating wasn't the best word to use. I meant it more as there would still be units untouched for Aerion to use after Donnel's initial charge. Not sure where the knights came into to play, but you are correct.
Lets look at the 1st round of the enactment using my proposed change. (3 DoS total to disorganize a unit, than 1 more DoS to send unit into next condition, and reroll initiative for each round.)
Donnel goes first and he routes 1 unit, disorganizes 2 more, and leaves 3 units with 1 DoS remaining. Aerion still has 9 units at full "health"
Now Aerion goes. He disorganizes 3 and leaves 2 with 1 DoS remaining. He also bring 1 united from routed to disorganized. Donnel still had 15 units at full health.
So after the end of the first round Donnel is still on top, but with having 2 less combat orders (Aerion used 1 of his orders to heal) Aerion was able to do close to the same amount of damage. Donnel still has the advantage ,as he should, since he has more men (and by extension more orders), but If Aerion can keep rolling as good as he did and wins some initiatives then he has a good chance of winning this fight.
My whole frame of thought behind this is I wanted numbers to continue to provide a clear advantage without the battle devolving into a slug fest and continue to keep the battle at a faster pace.
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Malyk
House Levalle
Posts: 648
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Post by Malyk on Sept 14, 2018 3:00:37 GMT 1
When we changed the Warfare in my live game, we did it very simply and it seemed to work well. We simply lumped units into companies and gave them the commensurate hit points.
So if an infantry company has 2000 men (and being by the rules 20 units) we considered them one unit with 1200 HP. Similarly a group of 300 Knights would not be 15 separate units, but one unit with 135 HPs. You could split companies with orders if you wish, but there was often little reason to do so unless you wanted to do a pincer maneuver.
Damage and all other stats remained the same. We playtested a couple fairly large battles and found high damage mobile units were very effective against substantially larger numbers, but were extremely vulnerable to attrition. Large companies were slow and not very maneuverable, but were extremely difficult to disorganize. (Compensated by the fact you could only reorganize a unit at a time. When a large unit disorganizes it takes a great deal to get them back into line again.)
As you can imagine, Knights and mobile units dominated due to their high armor and mobility, but due to their comparatively low hit points they were not invulnerable. Massive infantry companies had much lower damage but often had the advantage of HPs and could disorganize cavalry fairly reliably if they could manage to catch them in an vulnerable position.
The largest battle we fought was about 8 companies on a side and about 35,000 men on a side. Using RAW otherwise, it took about six hours to resolve the battle but it went fairly smoothly despite the enormous scale.
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OOC II
Sept 14, 2018 3:09:11 GMT 1
Post by Aerion Flowers on Sept 14, 2018 3:09:11 GMT 1
I think Ashara's right on this one. Mathematically, whoever goes first is going to win 99% of the time, barring a very big difference in army size and/or warfare ranks.
I think there was a number of smaller choices that were a little advantageous that added up to being much bigger than the sum. Going first automatically is an advantage, but only so much because whoever gets to go first issues all their orders and has them all resolve before any of the opponents orders take effect. The second person cant defend any attack, because 7 attack orders already resolved before their first defend one did.
Going back and forth on singular orders would reduce the overwhelming advantage of going first, and rolling initiative each round allows for some variance in combat flow while also rewarding the better commander as it would regress to the mean. It would take longer for sure, though.
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OOC II
Sept 14, 2018 6:52:45 GMT 1
Post by Alliser on Sept 14, 2018 6:52:45 GMT 1
P.S.
I really want Laena and Parmen to meet. Two attractive lascivious people walk into a room.
I have no reason to send Parmen to her, but it would be awesome to play through the fall out (if something should happen)
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OOC II
Sept 14, 2018 14:10:49 GMT 1
Post by Laena Pyre on Sept 14, 2018 14:10:49 GMT 1
P.S. I really want Laena and Parmen to meet. Two attractive lascivious people walk into a room. I have no reason to send Parmen to her, but it would be awesome to play through the fall out (if something should happen) Firstly, it's worth pointing out that I'm not capital-A Attractive (meaning I don't have the benefit). I wanted the benefit, but couldn't afford it. I justify that by saying that I *am* attractive, but people know what Lady Shiera looks like, and I can't really hold a candle to her, looking like the rough draft to her finished masterpiece. Secondly, despite him being married, the consequences would probably be a *lot* worse for me than him. At least, were word to get out. Also, it's not like my lascivious means that I'm cruising around looking for hot men to jump on. I'm just *incredibly* sexually frustrated, and liable to make stupid decisions because of it (if you're detecting a pattern in my actions of cool-headed pragmatism frustrated by regular bursts of emotion, that's deliberate). Not that I'm *against* us meeting, though enough is publicly known about my background and issues to explain why I'm not keen on House Levalle, but I don't see a motivation at the moment, either. And I'm not sure it'll be as exciting as you hope.
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Malyk
House Levalle
Posts: 648
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OOC II
Sept 14, 2018 17:17:19 GMT 1
Post by Malyk on Sept 14, 2018 17:17:19 GMT 1
Well, if you ever need an 'in' to House Levalle there is always Malyk.
I think it would be an interesting meeting as the two characters seem to be polar opposites. Someone who is cooly pragmatic vs someone who is warmly idealistic. Someone who has many agendas and schemes vs someone who has almost none. Someone who masks their true emotions and feelings vs someone who practically flaunts them.
Of course Malyk *is* capital-A Attractive although I doubt he is very much aware of that since he can generally find beauty in everyone he meets. (Admittedly he's never met Lord Eldon Merryweather. I suppose there are exceptions to every rule.)
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Post by Laena Pyre on Sept 14, 2018 18:32:39 GMT 1
Hmm. You do make a good point about the thematic opposites, but it doesn't get around the fundamental problem of a lack of motivation to meet. In fact, it's *worse* with you, since you're a commoner (albeit a powerful one), so you're not really someone who would 'occur' to Laena (despite being famous).
I'll keep an eye open for opportunities to meet any of you. Ser Parmen is probably the most likely, simply because he is noble and has a good reputation (though ironically is the one most likely to cause me serious problems).
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