[Day 8]Secrets in the Labyrinth [Technically open?]

"So, knights sworn to septons?" She seems thoughtful for a few moments. "Expensive things, knights. As are men at arms, come to that. How do you see them being paid for? Lords maintain knights by owning land. So, in your vision, would septons own land of their own? Presumably taken from lords, since inconveniently, more unoccupied land has yet to rise up out of the ocean on our borders recently. Given how land is largely equivalent to power, I see no problems whatsoever for the Faith with removing land from all nobles." Her tone is rather dry.

"The obvious alternative would be donations from lords, as a show of piety. And who is it who judges lords as being pious or impious? Oh, yes, those same septons receiving the money. Men. With all the flaws of men. Worse, some septons are common-born, with no education, training, or blood for military leadership. How long do you think it would be before donations became extortion? Ever-increasing payments, for ever-increasing power to the septon, else they suffer denouncement and smiting."

She sighs. "As soon as you start dealing with armed forces in any number, you mandate large quantities of coin. As soon as you start dealing with large amounts of coin, you mandate corruption, especially among those not raised amongst such wealth. Even nobles are not entirely immune to this - it hardly takes a septon to make a link between the wealth of Merryweather land and the moral corruption of its owner.

"And should septons be subject to the same corruptive influences as nobles, then who will watch the watchmen? For them to watch each other is doomed to an arms race, as corrupt septons seek enough power to be untouchable, leaving the honest to either be so weak as to be meaningless, or to turn to corrupt methods themselves, solely to defeat the corruption of others, of course. No, you would need some kind of holy men, isolated from the corruptive influences of wealth and power, to watch over and judge those with both..." She strokes her chin in mock thought, before giving a small self-effacing smile. "You see where I'm going with this, I'm sure."

"Rot, of course." There is no hesitation in Laena's response. "A scent strengthened by many seeds planted in the prior reign now bearing oh-so-rotten fruit. Seeds of inaction, seeds of complicity, seeds of sin; taking their most obvious form in the unmanageable tangle of wild Flowers choking the realm, but we are far from their only form. Sin lingers, poisoning the land long after the act ended.

"However, I do not believe that the problem is due to nobility. Give more power to the Faith, and you just corrupt them more. The problem is the fundamental nature of man, regardless of circumstance." She flicks him a look. "I observe that Ser Balon is one of your flock, from a deeply pious house.

"By consolidating power in the hands of those trained from birth in handling it, as well as ensuring they are watched over by an attentive septon, and sworn to the knight's oath, you at least ensure the situation is as least-bad as it can be, terrible as it may feel and be. Were I to offer .." She reaches for a number "seven dragons and change to a commoner, I could probably get them to betray a not-too-loved family member to their death. Any noble worth anything likely couldn't be bribed out of *bed* for that little money. And yet, things are still this bad. Imagine how much worse things would be if any power slipped out the hands of the nobility.

She sighs. "If there were any hope for humanity as a whole, if we deserved anything better than starting in our man-made hell, and ending in a Seven-made one, I never would have been born."

"If I hadn't been sired by a monster, and raised by one of the many pieces of wreckage he left behind him?" She gives his question serious consideration for a good few moments.

"Probably not." She admits eventually. "Were I raised by a virtuous lady, and a chivalrous lord, I'd likely be all too ready to see their nobility of character, and, consciously or unconsciously, blind myself to the suffering their inaction caused. I am not so self-hating as to poke my head into a situation that will cause me pain, so while I doubt I'd be so naive as to believe that everyone was as good as them, I'd at least believe there were genuinely good people.

"While I wouldn't wish my upbringing on anybody, I can't deny it gave me a .. clarity I wouldn't otherwise have."

Laena gives the Septon's argument careful consideration before answering. "Because of cold, hard facts. Whether or not it is true my father took knowledge of nine hundred ladies, it was definitely deep into the hundreds. While I imagine his official mistresses were relatively willing, especially early on, it is just as true among nobles as smallfolk that it is the pimp who profits, the whore just gets .. used, meaning I am confident in stating most of those ladies were like my mother - her pimp-lord may be willing, but she herself was not.

"Rape is an affront to the Seven, is it not? Of a virtuous noblewoman in particular. And all these goings on were hardly secret. The immoral sought advantage, the moral simply sat back and did nothing.

"Nothing."

She held up a hand. "Lest you feel I am holding myself above them, I include myself among that number. Were I born a generation earlier, and married back then, I would not encourage my husband to rise up against the king, and risk our comfortable life together. I would do as they did - keep my head down and wait for the depredations to pass. What do I care if some ladies I don't know and never will lose their virtue? What worth to me their sanity, compared with my own comfort and power? It is all so very far away that it is easy to ignore in favour of what is before me.

"This is, after all, the sensible choice. What kind of person would risk their life and livelihood of their family on a matter which doesn't involve them? Which will, at best, gain them nothing; and at worst lose them everything? To risk it all simply to uphold a principle?"

She looks the Septon in the eye as she answers the question. "A genuinely good person would. Because 'principles' are no such thing if you only adhere to them when convenient. And the fact that no-one would expect anyone to behave like that is precisely the point I am making - we are all selfish creatures, uncaring of suffering if it is not our own or that of those close to us, and more than happy to tolerate all kinds of sin and iniquity, so long as our faces are not rubbed in it, and it is sufficient enough a bother to deal with. Compare and contrast the behaviour of the lords here after Lord Eldon Merryweather's rape of that Starling girl - when there's no great risk, they're more than happy to make a grand statement about standing against such evil. But as soon as the risk is great enough, and the distance far enough?" She makes an emphatic gesture with her hands. "Nothing! Yet the crime is the same, merely multiplied."

"And should you argue that rebelling against the king is an immoral act, then I point you to the event going on right now, where many of the very same people who saw no reason to rebel against my father to stop his rapacious ways have no moral qualms about rebelling now, and despite all the reasons being thrown around, I've never heard one of them accusing the king of any moral failings. Every time a revolutionary gives a reason to join their faction, it is entirely fair and reasonable to mentally add on '... and that matters more to me than the rape of near nine hundred women I don't know.'.

"So, you tell me, Septon. How blinded am I?"

Laena shakes her head emphatically. "No, no no! The court is just a small fraction of the population. I find vindication in the reaction of *every noble in the land* to my father's excesses. Yes, there were exceptions. A small handful. Then-Prince Daeron was definitely one. Prince Aemon Targaryen the Dragonknight is an interesting case. Definitely a dutiful man, but perhaps, despite that, not a moral one. If he had been willing to fail his duty and let the brothers of Ser Terrence Toyne commit their assassination, the land would have been spared much, though it would make him the worst kind of oathbreaker." She shrugs. "Most likely he was damned either way. Regardless, I feel I lack the moral standing to judge him harshly either way. Anyway, the Toyne brothers are others - their motivation may have been specific to their brother's fate, rather than a wider principle, but at least they did *something* about it, rather than merely averting their eyes like so many others did.

"Anyway, you commend those who retreated to their seats and did not participate? Well, I condemn them! What good does that do those women - and, yes, occasionally men like Ser Terrence - who suffered, often quite literally, under him? Inaction in the face of iniquity is complicity!"

"Oh, that's quite likely. But that's my point! Don't you see? One rape, committed by a man they risk nothing in opposing, and you could forge a half-dozen life-size statues of Lord Eldon from the gauntlets piled at his flag. *Nine hundred* rapes committed by a man who they do risk their life, power, and comforts in opposing, and they ... 'retreat to their seats and do not partake'. Do you see the difference? If you are only moral when it's easy, *you are not moral*!"

"I oppose it for the power it would put in the hands of those even worse-equipped to handle it. Fanatics only emphasise those problems. Let us say ... Lord Starling were to ask of The Companions for them to procure an innocent maid for him to rape, as Lord Eldon did. Once they were convinced he was not making some kind of sick joke, The Companions would likely abandon him en-mass. In this way, knights act as a check on the actions of Lords. While this is far from surety, it is certain that fear of losing his knights has tempered more than one Lord's behaviour.

"But when you substitute in fanatics for knights, you abandon that check. Fanatics frequently abandon their own moral judgements, submitting that right to their chosen representative of the Seven as part of the same mentality that lets them view their own life as expendable. All said representative has to do is condemn the target as a sinner, and assure the fanatic that they are acting in the name of the Seven, and all kinds of atrocities can be justified."  She hesitates a moment.  "Though I do admit, probably not *that* one, but others, certainly.

"If power exists, it will be abused. That is mankind's true nature. All 'hope' is is a wilful blinding to the truth.

"Having said that, I acknowledge that I am raising my children to believe that lie of 'hope'. Like the sun, you can't stare at humanity's true nature overlong before it permanently damages something inside you, and I would not subject my children to that if they can avoid it."

Secrets in the Labyrinth - History Knowledge: 4d6k3 14 (Note, this is just to guide my answer)

At the Septon's comment, Laena comes back to herself and realises it's dangerous to be so open, with this septon particularly. Still, she's in too deep to stop now.

"Knight-fanatics may well be willing to face down monsters like my father, if their leaders are willing to risk their power and actually give that order." She concedes. "But let's talk about Ser Morgan Hightower, since you brought him up. He was cut down in ambush if I recall the version I heard correctly, but given the lack of independent witnesses, I imagine the details depend on the bias of the writer.

"But if, and I admit this is 'if', I remember correctly, wasn't both an ... aunt? of his also suspected for the murder of the High Septon? As well as the Archmaesters; which, given how the murderous act was likely the only one which would save Oldtown, and hence the Citadel, from being immolated by Maegor the Cruel, actually is a lot more plausible than most theories I've heard about nefarious acts being traced back to the Citadel. And that's assuming it even *was* murder, since I'm fairly certain I heard rumours of suicide as well, in order to save Oldtown. And if we can't narrow it down with all the benefits of hindsight, what chance did they have to be certain they were right? They just saw the pardon, and decided that was enough, when there are all kinds of political reasons to want to pardon the ... relatively close male relative of the Lord of a house as powerful as Hightower." Laena gamely tries to not let the gaps in her knowledge slow her flow too much.

"This rush to judgement is part and parcel of being a fanatic. Now, I am a bastard - born to lust and lies, and half the blood in my veins is that of a monster. In their eyes, I'd be half-damned to start with, likely more. Look me in the eyes, Septon. Look me in the eyes and tell me, with absolute certainty, that, if there were a resurgent Faith Militant when that nasty rumour about me spread a few days ago - for all its terrible grasp of political realities - that I wouldn't end up burned at the stake, or other similar punishment, as they leap at the chance to 'apply divine justice where mortal justice has clearly fallen short'."