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Post by Laena Pyre on Mar 28, 2020 23:38:24 GMT 1
"He may not have realised how far his lessons were applicable, but that doesn't make them untrue. Maesters observe the natural world, including animals.
"And humans are just animals with a thin vineer of civilisation over the top.
"Take away the fear of social consequences, and just see how the animal slips out through the veneer. Drunkenness, debauchery, and murder." A pause. "Yes, I am aware that I am an offender, too. I don't pretend I'm any better. I just don't delude myself as to what we are." She deliberately doesn't infer mention of her betrothed being caught visiting a brothel - her mind would undoubtedly go there, anyway, and there was no point in slapping her in the face with it. Even drunk and laying her cynicism bare, there was no need to be rude about it.
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Post by Father on Mar 29, 2020 13:13:29 GMT 1
"And brave foolish acts, too, let us not forget" Alicent does not seem to disagree.
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Post by Laena Pyre on Mar 29, 2020 22:44:19 GMT 1
Laena gives a sigh, mind immediately jumping to Balon. "And bravely foolish acts, too." She agrees, solemnly.
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Post by Father on Mar 31, 2020 10:45:16 GMT 1
Mayhaps it would be better if all of them would fight bravely, fight gallantly, and die nobly. Then the ladies would rule the realms, wouldn't that be something? Finding lovers are apparently easy, so who needs lords and knights for procreation? Whether she knows anything about Laena's adventures and slips up, plays on "Maegelle's" insinuations or simply jests about it is unclear, a sober lady would probably conclude one of the latter two.
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Post by Laena Pyre on Apr 1, 2020 22:30:09 GMT 1
Laena wrinkles her nose unseen. "No, I don't like that idea. I'd miss them. And if ladies ruled everything, the price of assassins would increase out of control.
"And while you *could* procreate with any man, it is well-known that a strong, healthy man provides strong, healthy children. Generally." A brief snort of amusement. "I believe you're set to do rather well in that area."
Did Lady Alicent know something? Maybe. But Laena certainly wasn't going to admit anything, and was more than happy to continue to dance around the subject.
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Post by Father on Apr 2, 2020 0:48:34 GMT 1
The cat might have been in such a hurry to leave Highgarden once upon a time to haven taken notice, but Brandon, the youngest son of Loras, him who makes the swords for the knights of Highgarden, well, he has turned nine and ten now if Alicent remembers, tall and dark quite handsome. To see him work in his father's forge, just in his breeches, no clothes from the waist up. To see those muscles rippling with his every stroke.
Not a knight, no, but mmmmmmm.
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Post by Laena Pyre on Apr 3, 2020 0:25:33 GMT 1
There's a brief pause as Laena drunkenly mentally wrestles with responding in a manner not too insulting. "Is that all that you would need, then? A handsome face and a strong body?
"I mean, they're not *bad* things... but ..." she growls in frustration as the words she seeks elude her drunken mind. "You were attacked. A terrifying, traumatic experience. You could have died, and not well. Only saved by the intervention of the Seven by way of the chance passage of a noble knight." Not quite how it had happened, but rumour and the passage of time on the memory had changed the story slightly in Laena's head.
"Would you - *could* you - put yourself willingly and knowingly in that situation again where your life would be in mortal danger?
"Knights do not always fight in fair, honourable duels. Every time they go out to fight, they could face an unwinnable situation. *And yet, they still go out there*." Her voice is quiet but emphatic.
"I'm not talking about the untested knights of summer, who have yet to face that. I'm talking about those knights who have faced true life-and-death situations, without the rules applying, *by choice*, and walked away unbroken.
"One of the smallfolk, as you describe, would never - *could* never - do such a thing. That's how broken men are made." She pauses. "Okay, barring certain *very* rare individuals, like now-Ser Mikel.
"To compare a well-made knight to some .. blacksmith's son is to compare castle-forged steel swords to ... some pottery. The pottery may *look* nice, but there's nothing inside of value, and it breaks all too easily." By now, Laena had quite lost any point she was trying to make, too distracted by trying to put into words why the other lady's words rankled so.
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Post by Father on Apr 3, 2020 15:59:57 GMT 1
Hah, if men are of no relevance, perhaps we might simply marry for love? And surely, there would be young fools eager to prove themselves worthy of our affections? To prove themselves better than their peers? Perhaps they might even retain their knightly titles for the privilege of being our glorified slaves? pets? occasional lovers? Would I be wrong in imagining my lady finding such an image pleasing. Be carried around on a litter by the likes of Redtusk, Marq, Blackfyre and Robb Reyne, and when you have arrived, they kneel on all fours before you to offer steps down to the ground?
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Post by Laena Pyre on Apr 4, 2020 22:00:55 GMT 1
Laena is silent for a time, partly confused as to how the other lady could have got 'men being irrelevant' from her words, and partly contemplating the truth of the accusation.
Were you to ask her simply if she deserved worship, she'd immediately answer 'yes'. It's certainly true that Ser Balon's persistent worship of her played a large role in her accepting him. But he's just an unlanded knight, while she's of royal blood. His worship of her is deserved. Lord Marq worshipping her ... feels wrong.
Finally, she realises why the idea rankles her so.
"...Charity.
"I do not want charity." Slightly more confident in her words.
"I do not want Redtusk, Bloodraven, Red Lion, Blackfyre and the rest to worship me.
"I want to *be* someone they would worship.
"And just because you will not reach your destination is no excuse to not take a single step.
"Those who just accept what they are given, who never risk what they are in order to be more, who always take the safe and easy route, who would passively accept worship they have not earned; they are *boring*. And I can think of no worse insult."
Coming back to herself, she realises she's probably said more than she should. "Ignore me." she scoffs. "The woman is wise, the drink is foolish."
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Post by Father on Apr 5, 2020 21:19:54 GMT 1
Or maybe the wine is wise, to make a lady speak the truth? Although the wine does seem to have a wicked love of causing a great deal of chaos. Alicent thinks that an apt description of knighthood, how many noble boys have been handed heir spurs to equate knighthood with manhood? One earns such a noble title by being deemed sufficiently trained to ride in the lance, and that's it? Or just deemed unlikely to shame the knight dubbing them?
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Post by Laena Pyre on Apr 6, 2020 22:49:53 GMT 1
"There are as many reasons to knight someone as there are knights, or thereabouts. Sometimes - as with the aforementioned Ser Mikel - you can believe them to be good. Other times - such as, for example, your prior betrothed - you can be sure they were bad.
"Most lie in the grey zone inbetween.
"The core issue to me is the *expectation* of knighthood. Those with power *have* to be knighted, however undeserving, because the two are intertwined.
"Just think - if 'knight' and 'lord' were exclusive titles, and having one forbade you from having the other, like 'maester' or 'septon' are. How much fewer knights would we have, yet how much more deserving of the title they would be?"
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Post by Father on Apr 7, 2020 17:31:36 GMT 1
Deserving? Who knows? Only a select few sons of lords would be knights, those having chosen that path for themselves. How convenient would it not be for an honorable route for uncles and second sons to remove themselves from the line of succession? And yet, the practice of handing out knighthood to bind warriors to one's service would continue without pause.
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Post by Laena Pyre on Apr 8, 2020 0:30:33 GMT 1
"Hmm. So tell me: your current betrothed. Fair to say you know him at least reasonably well? If we were in this hypothetical situation, and he had to *choose* between being a knight - having less power, but being able to ensure things were being done properly, in person - and being a lord - having more power, and being able to use that power as nobly as he wills, but having to delegate all of the *acts* to others, and trust in their capabilities and good judgement, as well as sending off others he may well like and respect into danger he will not lead or even follow them in to;
"I'm curious, which do you think he would choose, and why?"
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Post by Father on Apr 8, 2020 15:38:31 GMT 1
"He would have wanted the knighthood, chosen the lordship, and longed for what could have been for the rest of his days." Alicent answers without a moment's hesitation.
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Post by Laena Pyre on Apr 15, 2020 21:11:03 GMT 1
"And what of you?" A smile clear in her tone. "If you had to choose *for* him, without consulting him, between him having power, and him being happy, which would you choose?"
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