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Post by Laena Pyre on Aug 21, 2019 13:05:50 GMT 1
[This thread happens at Goldengrove]
Being both an elder sister and a mother, Laena naturally knew everything.
Or so she liked to present herself, anyway.
Truth is, there were gaps in her knowledge. And to fill them required not just asking the right question, but asking the right *person*. In this particular case, she needed an honourable revolutionary knight (who wouldn't either be tempted to punch her or storm off like a toddler should he find her questions awkward).
Limiting it to people she knew, this limited the field of candidates more than many revolutionaries would like to (publicly) admit. Really, only one name came easily to mind. Fortunately, it was a Redwyne, and if you want to understand the mind of a typical honourable knight, asking a Redwyne was a good way to go.
So it was that, at (allegedly) her cousin's wedding, she made time to hunt down Ser Parmen Redwyne, aiming to catch him relatively isolated (but not so isolated as to provoke suspicion that she wished a reprise of their meeting in the Tear's garden), since she wasn't entirely sure how he'd react to her presence. Particularly if his wife was with him. That was one enemy she did *not* want to make.
Finding her target and her moment, she strikes. "Ser Parmen." A graceful curtsey. "I hope this day finds you well. I have a question, of a kind of philosophical nature, which I believe you to be in a good position to answer. Could you spare me the time?" After a moment, an dryly amused smile. "That's not the question."
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Post by Parmen Redwyne on Aug 22, 2019 2:22:44 GMT 1
“Lady Laena. A pleasure to see you once again.” Parmen was embarrassingly pleased that there wasn't panic in his voice. “I don't believe that you have met my squire, Edwyn, my cousin’s son.”
Alys had been watching Parmen like a hawk ever since they had arrived at Goldengrove. An angry, very protective hawk with sharp talons and a quick beak. It was all that Parmen could do to excuse himself with his squire or another “escort” to get some respite. And then she showed up.
Parmen liked Laena. There was something about a women who would talk dirty in High Valyrian that Parmen found simultaneously arousing and terrifying. Parmen knew himself well enough to know that he was walking on thin ice and that was without taking into account any Great Bastard scheming. And Great Bastards always had schemes.
Still…Parmen liked Laena. He had enjoyed their conversation at the Tear. She was an ally of House Levalle (maybe) and she had as sharp a political mind as Lord Alliser. A conversation, just a conversation, surely there was no harm in that?
“How have you been since your visit to the Tear?” Suddenly Parmen realized exactly how much had happened since the two had last spoken. He bowed quickly. “Forgive me my lady for my insensitivity. I am sorry for House Starkwood’s recent loss. I was relieved to hear that your sister Ysilla was unharmed and saddened to hear of the brutal attack on your cousin Ashara. Her murder was appalling to all true Reachmen and Alys’ and my prayers go to her family. House Levalle owed her our gratitude for her actions saving Lady Lyanna at the Black Tourney. We will honor the memory of her deeds.”
“You say that you have a philosophical question to discuss? I am happy to assist but I fear that a simple knight such as myself may have taken too many hits to the head to be able to offer much insight to a lady such as yourself.”
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Post by Laena Pyre on Aug 22, 2019 12:00:21 GMT 1
“Lady Laena. A pleasure to see you once again.” Parmen was embarrassingly pleased that there wasn't panic in his voice. “I don't believe that you have met my squire, Edwyn, my cousin’s son.” "Squire Edwin." She greets him with the appropriate measure of respect. "I trust you are appropriately grateful, to the Seven and Man both, that you squire for a knight as good and true as yours." Her tone carries more the weight of instruction than genuine question. “How have you been since your visit to the Tear?” Suddenly Parmen realized exactly how much had happened since the two had last spoken. He bowed quickly. “Forgive me my lady for my insensitivity. I am sorry for House Starkwood’s recent loss. I was relieved to hear that your sister Ysilla was unharmed and saddened to hear of the brutal attack on your cousin Ashara. Her murder was appalling to all true Reachmen and Alys’ and my prayers go to her family. House Levalle owed her our gratitude for her actions saving Lady Lyanna at the Black Tourney. We will honor the memory of her deeds.” She acknowledges the bow and apology with a nod. "Apology accepted. And it is worth more than mere words to know that her memory will carry on in more hearts than just those at Starkwood and mine. To answer your question as best as I am able, it's been ... a time." She puffs out a breath and shakes her head. "Hopefully yours was less turbulent." “You say that you have a philosophical question to discuss? I am happy to assist but I fear that a simple knight such as myself may have taken too many hits to the head to be able to offer much insight to a lady such as yourself.” She smiles amiably at the jest, but shakes her head. "More precisely, I wish to learn how a good and honourable knight of the revolution sees a particular matter. Be flattered to learn that my mind immediately went to you." She straightens herself, and turns more serious in expression. "I hear time and again criticism of the King from the revolutionary camp that he is not a knight. I wish to learn, if you hold to this view, *why* it is so important that the King be a knight. After all, King Baelor the Blessed was no knight, and, while hardly the best King, was *far* from our worst." |
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Post by Parmen Redwyne on Aug 27, 2019 4:16:28 GMT 1
Parmen opened his mouth to respond to Laena’s question and then closed it without saying anything. He pursed his lips and began drumming his left pointer and middle fingers on his sword belt, a gesture that Edwyn had learned to interpret as a sign that his master was lost in thought.
“The King’s lack of knighthood is a problem but it is what lies behind the lack of knighthood that is the bigger problem.” Parmen finally said.
"To be a knight is to swear holy vows before the Seven. To follow the demands of chivalry and fight fiercely but to show respect to a noble opponent. To defend women and children. To live a life of honor. Living up to the demands of knighthood is all important for some. Lords like my father and Lord Starling. The same with Ser Aubrey Ambrose, my brother Roland and, likely, Roland Cordwayner. There are likely more in the Stormlands, Westerlands, and the Vale that I am not familiar with but you being better-informed may know."
"What is important is that while of all of these disdain the king most cherish their own honor and oaths too tightly to take aggressive steps to replace him. They will fight if forced and fight very well but they will not attack under false banners or use underhanded tactics to start a war. They will keep their swords sharp but sheathed until they see no other choice but to draw them".
"The bigger problem lies not with the King’s lack of knighthood but with what that lack represents. The King is perceived as weak. That is because he is weak, at least physically.” Parmen found himself remembering his recent conversations with Ser Mikel, Ser Roland and Ser Trystane. When did I start to become a philosopher or a preacher??
"Lords, knights and smallfolk alike we all look up to our king for strength, inspiration and stability. Too many look at the King's weakness and see it as contributing to the sense of chaos spreading across the realm. While the King has strong men around him this only highlights that he is not himself a warrior and that he surrounds himself with maesters and septons."
"The King seems to lack the ability or the willingness to inspire his people or to overawe his enemies. He is no warrior and that is what is important to the majority of his subjects some of whom will seek to take advantage. Aegon the Conqueror was no knight but no man doubted his prowess with Blackfyre or his strength of will. The same could be said of Orys Bartheneon. Plus they had dragons! The King does not have Balerion or Verminthor to impress people with anymore; he must do it on his own."
"It is strength that the people are looking for. Strength and courage and a steel will. And this King, whatever his other attributes, has failed to demonstrate these qualities. People ask how can we rely on him to fight for us against the new lord of the Iron Islands, the pirates from the Free Cities or the bandits and broken men that plague these troubled times? How can he fight against Lords who seek to take advantage to enrich themselves, to prosecute old grievances, or to seize power?"
"In a way it is a shame; if being a knight was truly all-important than the King could simply command Ser Tywin Lannister to knight him and all would be well. But the King lacks the qualities to do more than stand in an ill-fitting suit of armor."
"You can draw scales and wings on a dog but that will not make him a dragon. More the pity for the realm. A strong hand is needed to defend the seven kingdoms and hold them together, especially now that Dorne has been added.”
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Post by Laena Pyre on Aug 27, 2019 18:50:20 GMT 1
Laena listens carefully to Ser Parmen's answer. Honestly, it's a better answer than she thought she'd get, and proves Ser Parmen a liar in his modesty, at least.
"When I was young, my mother taught me that a leader needed to provide two things to be effective: an enemy to hate, and themselves to fear. In this way, man's naturally violent instincts would be channelled away from him, and towards their enemies.
"As an adult, I came to believe that instead, an effective leader must inspire both fear and love in his followers. Like a child sees their parents as like unto a god, so too must a leader appear so to his followers. Just as the Father has the Seven Heavens to reward the faithful, and the Seven Hells to punish the sinful, so too must a leader be seen as able to reward and punish accordingly.
"We both agreed on the 'fear' part, at least. What I had not considered was that the fear would need to be intrinsic for it to work. I had thought that so long as the leader - the king in this case - was seen as able to call on forces to punish the disloyal, that would work. Put another way: the King's problem was his inability to effectively punish those who are basically openly disloyal.
"But what *you* are saying is that even if the King was able to punish the dissenters without running roughshod over the law he is sworn to uphold, the fact that he would not be able to do so *himself* would negate most if not all of the rallying effect it would normally have. That, in effect, because he is not a knight, knights will never see him as a figure to be feared - and hence, respected - regardless of his actions.
"Am I understanding you properly, would you say?"
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Post by Parmen Redwyne on Sept 3, 2019 4:34:43 GMT 1
"When I was young, my mother taught me that a leader needed to provide two things to be effective: an enemy to hate, and themselves to fear. In this way, man's naturally violent instincts would be channelled away from him, and towards their enemies. Parmen raises an eyebrow at Laena’s description of her Mother’s philosophy on leadership. Her mother sounds like she learned leadership from King Maegor. I wonder what her brother Aerion is like.
“I believe that we may be closer than you might think. When I was a boy one of my uncles explained to me and my brothers what he thought it took to captain a ship. He said that you must instill discipline in the men in order to get them to react as one when needed, but that you must also be able to inspire those men so that they will sail through a thunderstorm or charge across a burning deck for you. Leaders need to have both traits or else they will fail. Fear will only get you so far with people who will do just enough to avoid your anger, but the ability to inspire…with that you will have followers who will walk through Seven Hells for you and accomplish things that they never thought they were capable of.
"You mentioned King Baelor. It’s true that he was no warrior and by all accounts he was at least half-mad. However, his obvious piety and disregard for his own safety convinced many that the Seven truly spoke to him. He was no knight but as a Septon King he had the power of the Faith and the adoration of the common folk, and the more pious lords, to support him. The people spoke of him with awe. There is more than one way to inspire people, being a warrior is just the most obvious way."
"It isn’t necessary that the King be the strongest sword in the Seven Kingdoms. Not many men will ever be a match for my brother Roland, no matter how hard they work,” And don’t I know it. “What is important is that he works to earn respect and then turns that respect into inspiration.”
"That is the crux of the problem for those of us who would like to clean up the realm but avoid a war. The King fails to inspire. He lacks the strength that his knights and lords look for. He does not have the force of personality or arms to motivate them towards a common goal."
"And then there is Ser Daemon Blackfyre. Now there is a knight who, simply by being who he is as you put it in our last meeting, inspires awe. Perhaps the comparison is not fair but it is impossible to see the two of them and not at least think about the differences."
"If it was simply a matter of instilling fear, well, the King has the ability to do that but it is not enough at least not now. Strong men want to be led by Blackfyre. They want a King who will guide them into a thunderstorm and convince them that they will survive to discover a new land on the other side."
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Post by Laena Pyre on Sept 4, 2019 21:06:33 GMT 1
Laena raises an eyebrow. "Interesting. Fear to instil discipline, but inspiration to truly lead. You say those are the two fundamental principles of leadership?"
She quirks her mouth into a half-smile, a clear giveaway that she knows her next question to be deliberately provocative. "So, with that, are you claiming that the King is a complete failure as a leader?" She holds up a stalling finger. "Not as a *king*, mind you, since that is more specific, I'm asking how you see him as a *leader*. I mean, you've described the skills a leader needs to succeed, and said how the King doesn't have them..." Her smirk deepens. "Just between us, of course."
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Post by Parmen Redwyne on Feb 4, 2020 22:47:48 GMT 1
Parmen felt like he was on a boat about to enter a spring storm; not dangerous necessarily but one needed to keep a careful eye out if they wanted to avoid getting swept completely off course.
"A complete failure? Now you are the one being harsh," Parmen says with a smile. "Surely the King has some beneficial qualities for a leader, the question is does he have enough? Keep in mind that he is a leader that is not just trying to preserve the old systems or even to make small, modest changes that are already popular with everyone. No, he wants to make huge, dramatic shifts. These changes require more than just a careful steward, they require a man who has the strength and vision to create a new future. And the king is...seen as weak."
"So we come back to the question of strength again, strength not just of arm but of will. A leader must have the strength to make his followers follow his vision and inspire them to take it on as their own. My old Master Lord Fossoway used to say that it took a tough man to break in a new destrier but to make a true warhorse you needed the strength to at the same time build the animal's aggression, discipline and loyalty. If you are truly successful then you wind up with a steed that is eager to charge into the fight with his knight. Men are not horses but I think that it takes the same strength to guide both of them until they charge not because they fear the whip but because they trust their rider knows the correct course to take."
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Post by Laena Pyre on Feb 8, 2020 17:15:16 GMT 1
"Mmmm." Laena purses her lips and hums thoughtfully. "In your view, would the King be strong enough to lead if he hadn't made the serious blunder at the start of his reign of taking those who had grown most powerful under his father's reign and making them his sworn enemies? Or would the integration of Dorne alone be enough to provoke this trouble, even without having powerful men hammering on the cracks that developed?"
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Post by Parmen Redwyne on Feb 19, 2020 20:47:36 GMT 1
"I am not certain my lady." Parmen mused. "Which came first the dragon or the egg?"
"Reducing the power of over-arrogant lords or bringing Dorne peacefully into the Seven Kingdoms are both worthy goals that could consume the majority of a King's reign. Our King decided to do both and to do them quickly. As a boy my master-at-arms taught me that speed and seizing the initiative were crucial for success in a fight but that I needed to watch my flanks and keep my shield up to keep my attack from turning against me. It seems that courtly intrigue may combat of a different sort."
"The King reduced the power of certain lords but he brought in new ones who are just as corrupt and strangers to his countrymen besides. He brought Dorne into the Realm but he lacked the support necessary to negotiate terms from a position of strength or to ensure that the high lords had just as much riding on the success of the Peace as he did. The King could perhaps have managed one of those two fractures but both taken together...well the first Aegon or perhaps Jaehareys might have been able to move the world to suit their vision but not everyone has it within themselves to match those two."
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Post by Laena Pyre on Feb 20, 2020 20:26:13 GMT 1
Laena raises an eyebrow. "You agree with the goals of clipping the wings of those grown fat off my father and of integrating Dorne? Are you then putting your full support behind the King? Since he clearly needs all the support of good and honourable knights like yourself that he can get, to shore up his own weaknesses. After all, should the king be overthrown, it is clear that those 'worthy goals' would be cast aside first, and you hardly strike me as the kind of person to deliberately act in a way that would lead towards an ... unworthy goal." An amused sparkle in her eyes is clear, entertained by putting him on the spot, rather than genuinely pushing for a commitment. "The peace you spoke of before is a noble goal, yet it seems now that it is ... unlikely, to say the least."
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