|
Post by Roland Cordwayner on May 8, 2019 10:02:10 GMT 1
Roland smiles at Ser Parmen's remarks on his betrothed, as lovestruck as ever.
"My betrothed is truly a woman worth living for."
At Parmen's questioning he offers his thoughts on the matter.
"Honour and chivalry serve two purposes here."
"A knight is sworn to both king and lord. At the worst of times a man may find his oaths in conflict. For my own part, I would seek to judge the justice of the decisions of both men with a claim on my loyalty and cleave to the man who tradition demanded I follow. But for many, the chivalric oaths they swore may drive them to war rather than help prevent it."
"However, here we come to the second purpose of chivalry. Even if parties disagree and come to blows, the vows we swore will help mitigate the harm done. I have seen war and not all men have sworn vows, nor do all who have said the words follow them. But enough do to mitigate the worst of things and hold others to account."
"I shall do my best for my king and for peace, but if sorrow's path brings us to swords then I know that honour means that parley is respected, that discipline is maintained and ransoms are taken. Without such a knight is merely a killer no matter how skilled he is. A man risks defeat against Otho Bracken or Ser Roland Redwyne, but can be much surer of being ransomed with the latter. I am no poet, but if I can mimic your wording mayhap at times chivalry is both a bridge that takes us to war but also the bridge to conducting that wanner in a righteous fashion."
That such courtesies were denied to the smallfolk did not even register with Roland.
"However, I am concerned as to your comments as to "supporting" Ser Daemon Blackfyre."
Tellingly, Roland gave the man his noble title rather than his bastard name.
"I too respect the man, but there is nothing there to "support" - King Daeron rules by right and blood, however skilled and honourable we agree his brother is. If a man raises his banners in rebellion to serve ambition then we would have to revise our opinion of his honour. I would support him in any effort to purge dishonourable conduct at court, but no further than that. We speak now of swords and war - would you truly follow a man in to war if his very prompting of that conflict cast aside all we had previously valued in him?"
Roland spoke without rancour, but stood at this point.
|
|
|
Post by Trystane Sand on May 8, 2019 11:02:14 GMT 1
While the smallfolk did not occur to Ser Roland, they did to Ser Trystane.
“Your thoughts on Ser Daemon aside, Ser Roland - and I agree with you there, by the way - what of our chivalry when it comes to the people who suffer most from war? The smallfolk are not eligible for ransoms if they are cut down or their home and fields laid to waste.”
There is no ire or malice in Trystane’s voice, though it is clear he is serious, and the way he looks at each of the assembled party as he speaks bears the hint of a test.
“The highborn may wage wars, but it is those who are powerless and invisible to us that pay the most for them. We are charged, as knights, to protect the innocent. Do they not strike you as the most innocent of all? Just because their place is in service does not mean that they should be disregarded or abused, especially when, if we are honest with ourselves, much of our way of life would break down without them.”
|
|
|
Post by Roland Cordwayner on May 8, 2019 15:01:30 GMT 1
"We swore an oath to protect the innocent, and it would go ill for any man who raises a hand against a woman or child while I am on campaign. A true knight cannot allow such stains to reflect on him - if trespasses are made they must be rectified and the guilty punished."
When it came to peasants, the best that could be claimed for Roland is that he sometimes did the right thing for the wrong motivation, concerned more with how ill deeds reflected on the nobility involved rather than the victims.
"But I would not go so far as to call the smallfolk innocent - some of the most wicked, depraved deeds I have seen committed during war were committed by levies. Such is unsurprising, for they lack the character, discipline and training of their betters."
"We spoke of Highgarden's horrors earlier, and the mob of screaming peasants attempting to murder the Merryweathers was a disgrace and a reminder of what happens when people forget their place. Merryweather had failed in his obligation to treat the smallfolk fairly, and the peasants took to their brands and pitchforks rather than petitioning their lord. It is not their place to dispense justice."
"I have seen war, but the riot that night was something far worse."
|
|
|
Post by Trystane Sand on May 8, 2019 21:27:03 GMT 1
"But can you blame them for rising up against someone who abused them? When they are not permitted access to the avenues of justice that we have? If petitioning one's Lord for justice was always the solution, there would never be uprisings. But there are Lords like Merryweather who do not listen, and do not care. Would you accept such apathy if it were you who had been wronged, and you didn't have the training and status to fight for your case? I'm not saying they should have all the same things as us. That would be absurd. But I do think that treating them with a bit more compassion would go a long way to keeping such violence from reoccurring. Smallfolk, when they love you, can be very devoted. Just because they are beneath our standing does not mean they should be stamped on."
He languidly waved away his own comments.
"Or perhaps I'm just naive and have too much of a soft spot for the poor sods. I appreciate that I am at a disadvantage for not having seen war and rioting."
|
|
|
Post by Roland Cordwayner on May 9, 2019 11:02:04 GMT 1
"Lord Tyrell's subjects had not been harmed - the peasants chose a worthy target but that does not vindicate murder and rioting. House Cordwayner was and remains the injured party here, not the sweepings around Highgarden. Our lord's subject was defiled and our justice has merely been delayed by Ser Rennifer Water's tricks. It is not denied. To return to our host's theme, Chivalry here compels the companions and our noble lord to strive to right the wrong done even to the meekest in House Starling's service."
"Compassion is indeed a virtue. The Seven Pointed Star say so. A closed fist when the smallfolk rise up, an open hand to innocents and to help the peasantry recover. Such is holy and builds loyalty."
|
|
|
Post by Mikel of Harroway on May 16, 2019 2:47:42 GMT 1
Mikel listened to each man in turn. The conversation was everything he had hoped it would be. A man from the small folk, one of a reknown family, a dornish man with royal blood, and a man of noble birth whose personal reputation left no question as to his character. A gathering of diverse men whose commonalities gave them the comfort to share.
"While living in hedges such talks were easy to come by - if you found the right people and did not cause them to suspect you of anything outside casual conversation. You would all go your seperate ways come morning and were unlikely to cross paths again, so it was easy to speak personal truths."
"This discussion is similar but of greater quality, and I feel fortunate to be sitting among you." He lifted in wine in silent toast.
"Ser Trystane I do agree that everyone should strive to be morally upright, but would temper that statement by saying that -should- is not reason enough for me to suspect anybody would. Especially in consideration that their opinions on morality and what others should do might be wildly different then my own. But our oaths as Knights can be considered a foundation from which we decide when and how to act. But even then, getting two knights to agree on the why and how would probably not be easily without some commonality or hierarchy present."
"Then to add in an obligation on service adds another realm of considerations. Your lord may issue an order which affronts your honor and breeches your knightly oaths, and in having asked has broken his own oath not to impose such upon you. So how do we decide what to do? Where to we draw our lines?"
At talk of the small folk Mikel shared an opinion. "Forgive me, I do understand and accept social superiority, but I do have reservations when it comes speaking of supremacy. In my experience, people are people regardless of station or location. I have met Knights who couldnt be bothered to spare even a moment for the small folk, yet those small folk have provided everything for that Knight for the entirity of his life. Grown and hunted his food, made his clothing, crafted his armor, forged his sword, and built his castle. As they must meet their requirements due their Lord, their Lord must meet his due to them."
Mikel took a breath from his long winded diaolouge before continuing. "All of the rioters were wrong for what they did. That priest was wrong to incite them. As Lord Starling and Lord Merryweather were the involved parties I firmly believe that their liege lord failed them in this moment. He failed Lord Starling in not providing justice, and Lord Merryweather by not holding him accountable. But if a Lord preys on the people, and his lord fails to hold him accountable, I do not think any of us would like to think of ourselves as the type to have sat idly by especially if we believed it was a case of our betters disregarding what happened beacuse it wasnt one of them."
Mikel leaned back, waiting to hear the thoughts of the others.
|
|
|
Post by Trystane Sand on May 16, 2019 3:12:02 GMT 1
“I think you very much have the right of it, Ser,” Trystane says, similarly raising his cup in salute. “It is not just about those on high saying what is right, for there is not necessarily agreement on what that means. Nor is it just about those in service obeying, for, as you say, leaders have a duty to those they lead as well. And finding balance between those things is its own delicate act. You rightly point out that many who swear the oaths do not uphold them, and that high and low alike are capable of every possible good and every possible evil. And if people lose everything to savagery, or even stand to do so, it is understandable that some may be driven to savagery themselves, in turn. Therein lies the difference between a reason and an excuse. One may have been driven to violate an oath or ideal by understandable events, but it does not mean that one should not be held accountable. In the example you give - a Lord compels his sworn men to break an oath or to betray their principles, but in doing so breaks his own oath to keep them from such conflicts of interest. Ideally, both could be accountable to eachother and resolve things peacefully, but we know ourselves that is not how it tends to go. Dorne is no different from anywhere else in that respect. In a culture that values deeds over words, talking things through is not a valued strategy for solving problems.”
|
|
|
Post by Parmen Redwyne on May 17, 2019 4:53:52 GMT 1
As the conversation progressed Parmen was struck by the realization that he was different from these esteemed knights in at least two important ways. Not only was he the only one who was counted as a Fire supporter he was also the only one who was charged with the management and protection of a domain. He might not be a lord with the power of pit and gallow at his command but he was responsible for the lives of all pf those who called Highever home. That sort of responsibility could change a man, even a young knight who enjoyed good women, good swords, and good wine in that order. Bad women too of course, especially the bad ones.
"The small folk have a right to expect our protection just as we, their betters, have a right to demand their loyalty and obedience. If either side fails in their obligations then the system, ordained by the Seven above, starts to breakdown. Peasants and artisans become easy prey for manipulation if their lords are too weak to protect them or worse, if they are too cruel or corrupt to care. As Ser Roland rightly says compassion is a knightly virtue, and as is we are told humility and wisdom, but it is strength and leadership that the small folk look for in their knights. We, all of us at this table, are warriors first and foremost. It seems that it should be chivalry that guides us to use those talents in ways that serve the good of the realm while bringing honor to our names. Otherwise we become no better than Ser Rennifer or those murderous bastards from the Iron Islands."
What the "good of the realm" meant was anyones guess. Parmen had just enough self-awareness to realize that what was good for him might be very different that what was good for a farmer at Highever or an oarsmen on a Redwyne galley. However, he still lacked the experience or the wisdom to reconcile the apparent contradictions, even if he could sense that they were lying their under the surface.
|
|
|
Post by Trystane Sand on May 17, 2019 8:21:20 GMT 1
Damning Rennifer Waters is very much speaking Trystane’s proverbial language, and he salutes Parmen’s statement with his cup before drinking deeply.
|
|
|
Post by Mikel of Harroway on May 25, 2019 7:11:34 GMT 1
Mikel nodded at the dialogue. Nobody was just speaking to talk, but in speaking added value to the conversation. Mikel was curious about Ser Parmen's mentioning that he supported Ser Daemon and wondered how a man like Ser Parmen, one he saw as honorable, could do so.
"Ser Parmen, I would like to ask you how exactly you meant your comment about supporting Ser Daemon? Please, again, there is no judgment at this table. Specifically I would like to ask how somebody like yourself - an honorable man who from what I believe strives to live a good and noble life - came to support him? I am genuinely curious and perhaps this will help me to understand things on a grander scale. My own thoughts on the matter is that King Daeron is our rightful king and is doing a good job at it. He is not corrupt, or rapacious, or throwing away lives in pointless wars or plays for power. Most people do not go hungry and there is enough prosperity to go around for this willing to work for it. I believe that if this situation had occurred during the last kings reign I could see the sense in it. But in this instance, it seems to me that the men who had their hands in the former kings pockets miss their privileges, and believe since the King is no war hungry Knight of repute he must be weak enough to usurp."
There is no maliciousness or accusation in Mikel's voice. Perhaps in another life he could have been a Maester, impassionately learning the more intimate parts of how and why the human mind works as it does.
|
|
|
Post by Trystane Sand on May 25, 2019 16:22:11 GMT 1
Trystane tensed up a little as Mikel broached the subject with Parmen. He agreed with Mikel, but what Trystane had seen at Summerhall had planted the seed of doubt in his heart. So he kept quiet, and watched warily for the reaction, hoping this was not the start of a more heated debate. That would sober him right up, and that was the last thing he wanted.
|
|
|
Post by Parmen Redwyne on May 28, 2019 4:47:11 GMT 1
Parmen bristled momentarily before nodding his head in acceptance. Ser Mikel might be low-born but his skills and honor had earned him Ser Parmen’s respect. Besides it was not like Parmen could avoid this question forever.
Careful now…Parmen poured himself another glass of wine to allow himself time to gather his thoughts. Then he offered a toast. “To King Daeron. King of the Andals and the First Men…and the Rohynar.” That still takes some getting used to.
Parmen took a small sip before continuing. The King is perceived as weak because he is weak. The problem is not that he is not a war hungry knight it’s that he is no knight at all. He is undeniably clever and that is good. Stupid leaders get their men killed. He may even be a good man. At the least he doesn't seem possessed of the evil of King Maegor.
Is he a dramatic improvement over his Father? Yes, of course, but that’s not really relevant when the Unworthy King is dead. During Aegon IVs reign the king had his brother, the Dragonknight, to fight for him and eventually to die for him. Much the same way Ser Tywin, the Sword of the Morning, and my own brother Garth fight for Daeron. I wonder sometimes how often the Dragonknight questioned if his honor, his weapons skills, and his loyalty caused more harm to the realm than good?"
Ser Daemon Blackfyre also fights for the King. I saw him champion the royal cause at Summerhall as did many of you. He defended the realm and the honor of Lady Lysette at the risk of his own body and reputation, against a blackguard as dangerous as Ser Rennifer.
Are there knights who push the Fire cause out of their own self-interest and bigotry? Yes, there are. There are also supporters of the King who do so only to advance their own positions or to line their pockets with ill-gotten gold. Or to pursue personal vendettas. Or because they think a war will bring them opportunities for glory and plunder. The difference is that Ser Daemon has actually called out those who claim to support him but whose actions ring hollow against his ideals of chivalry. Though if I find the dog who blackmailed me I’ll save Blackfyre the trouble of dealing with him.
Parmen looks directly at Mikel. At Highgarden, when the Brute struck you so dishonorably, it was my Lord Levalle who spoke in your defense, but it was Ser Daemon who met Ser Otho’s challenge and tested Blackfyre against the Brute’s poleaxe. He did not have to do that, it was not his fight. He took up the gauntlet because it was the right thing to do.
I said earlier that the small folk look to us for strength and leadership. We knights and lords look in turn to our King for the same. The best ones combine strength with wisdom, but the weak ones cause chaos. I am no maester to quote history but I learned enough about King Aenys, to know what a weak King brings to a realm. In Aeny’s time the Faith Militant and their Septons thought that they could take justice into their own hands and use mobs to punish those they deemed sinful or blasphemous. Whatever their intentions, their actions harmed innocent and guilty alike. Tell me that is not what we saw happening at the Black Tourney. History may not repeat itself, but it is close enough that I can see how this song ends.
The murders of Lord Jon and Lord Desmond. Parmen nods towards Ser Roland. Cutthroats attacking noble ladies and their Septas in the woods. Towards Mikel. The attack on Lady Ysilia and the murder of Lady Ashara in her own tent. Trystane. The disappearance of Ser Vorian Dayne in the Red Mountains. The realm is plunging into chaos and violence. It needs strong leadership and Kings Landing is unable or unwilling to provide it. Under these circumstances it is no surprise that the realm is looking towards Ser Daemon. Blackfyre may not want to be king, and I have seen nothing from him that indicates that he does, but the realm may need his leadership to clean out Kings Landing.
In a perfect world the King would cede power to his son, the Breakspear who would rule the realm wisely with his uncle Ser Daemon as Hand of the King, while the King takes the opportunity to enjoy his books, his prayers and the good that his peace with Dorne has achieved. We do not live in a perfect world. I do not want to see a war that will split the realm, and my family, apart. I would give my shield hand to prevent it from happening, but time is running out and I may need both sword and shield soon.
If the moderates do not take action than the extremists will. I suspect that they already have and that we may already be too late, in which case it doesn’t matter who sits the Iron Throne. The realm has already lost. There was passion but also a deep resignation in his voice. "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote." Lady Laena's words but the voice in his head was his own.
|
|
|
Post by Trystane Sand on May 29, 2019 0:46:02 GMT 1
"Wouldn't it be preferable to find ways to make our King better, rather than break our oaths and commit treason to overthrow him?" Trystane asks, tentatively, against his better judgement.
"The King may have made some questionable decisions and not acted where action was needed, but he has a small council that advises him like any other monarch. He must listen to someone. It stands to reason that the right appeals and advice, given in the right way, by the right people, and in the right place, could make the changes so many want. A King should still be accountable, but there are less severe ways to achieve this than insurrection. Perhaps more good men around him who can get him to listen is better than inciting a civil war."
He lets out a sad sigh.
"Look, I hate how Summerhall went as much as anyone, more than most, even, and I can't deny it has left me with conflict in my heart, but the King had an impossible situation to contend with. There was no way to make everyone happy. He disregarded the outcry and failed to dispense proper justice, so people call him weak. If he had listened and taken Rennifer's hand or similar, people would say he is too easily swayed by the mob, and therefore weak. You can never win when you're the King."
He gestures around his companions with his cup hand, his index finger pointed outward in warning.
"And if there is a war, those who truly lose will not be the heads of either faction. It will be the smallfolk, whom our whole society relies on. The people whose homes are burned and pillaged, who will be displaced and terrorised. Who will suffer more than anyone else because those charged with their protection are too busy fighting over which arse goes in the big chair. Just ants to a couple of raging elephants. What is chivalry to me? Not wanting that, that's what it is."
With that, he is silent, though he follows his outpouring by taking a rather tense gulp of his wine.
|
|
|
Post by Parmen Redwyne on Jun 7, 2019 5:45:59 GMT 1
"Wouldn't it be preferable to find ways to make our King better, rather than break our oaths and commit treason to overthrow him?" Trystane asks, tentatively, against his better judgement. "The King may have made some questionable decisions and not acted where action was needed, but he has a small council that advises him like any other monarch. He must listen to someone. It stands to reason that the right appeals and advice, given in the right way, by the right people, and in the right place, could make the changes so many want. A King should still be accountable, but there are less severe ways to achieve this than insurrection. Perhaps more good men around him who can get him to listen is better than inciting a civil war." He lets out a sad sigh. "Look, I hate how Summerhall went as much as anyone, more than most, even, and I can't deny it has left me with conflict in my heart, but the King had an impossible situation to contend with. There was no way to make everyone happy. He disregarded the outcry and failed to dispense proper justice, so people call him weak. If he had listened and taken Rennifer's hand or similar, people would say he is too easily swayed by the mob, and therefore weak. You can never win when you're the King." He gestures around his companions with his cup hand, his index finger pointed outward in warning. "And if there is a war, those who truly lose will not be the heads of either faction. It will be the smallfolk, whom our whole society relies on. The people whose homes are burned and pillaged, who will be displaced and terrorised. Who will suffer more than anyone else because those charged with their protection are too busy fighting over which arse goes in the big chair. Just ants to a couple of raging elephants. What is chivalry to me? Not wanting that, that's what it is." With that, he is silent, though he follows his outpouring by taking a rather tense gulp of his wine. Parmen just stares at Ser Trystan for a few moments, considering the Dornishman’s words, then lifts his cup and drinks deeply. “I’ll drink to that. No one left Summerhall looking good.”
“A war needs to be avoided. The smallfolk of Highever, Seven help them, look to me and House Levalle for their protection. I am oath-bound to do so. The deaths caused by sword or axe will not be the worst of it. Depending on where and when the fighting takes place I would expect that at least as many will die due to famine or sickness.
"The situation is actually worse than you may know. Lord Torwyn Greyjoy has been acclaimed as the Lord of the Iron Islands and I hear rumors that he is gathering ships and swords in anticipation of the upcoming war. If a war does break out his reavers will pick over the seven kingdoms like carrion crows after a battle. The Ironborn only respect strength and they look at us and perceive weakness."
"If you can think of a way to help the King Daeron to make better decisions, to surround himself with people who can cover for his weaknesses while playing to his strengths than please share your ideas. Bringing Blackfyre onto the small council or a position of authority in the Crownlands would be a good step. It would also be wise to find a place of honor in Kings Landing for a man of Lord Peake's...talents. It is a risk, but those who are willing to risk everything in a war should look at what risks they can accept to maintain the peace."
"Most people seem to think that war is inevitable and are too busy preparing to fight it to put effort into preventing it. It is refreshing to hear from someone who thinks that we can avoid another Dance of Dragons. There are not many of us and I confess that if find it harder and harder to hold out hope for a peaceful solution."
|
|
|
Post by Trystane Sand on Jun 7, 2019 23:31:46 GMT 1
"I agree that the King should bring Blackfyre into his small council. I believe they would work far better together than at odds. The King does have at least some trust in him, or he wouldn't have chosen him to champion Lady Lysette. I'm not sure Ser Daemon even wants to be King."
Trystane lets a little of the tension in his chest dissipate, glad that he hadn't inadvertently escalated matters, and that he was finding some common ground.
"And I am glad to not be the only one who would prefer to put his energies into preventing war than priming himself to gain from it or even just to endure it. We may not succeed in the end, but I for one would not be able to rest easy if I didn't at least try.
|
|