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Post by Laena Pyre on Apr 15, 2019 10:16:49 GMT 1
Having said that if participant was held to have breached implicit or explicit rules to such a trial, then that would be grounds for a mistrial [e.g. cheating]. Except, as far as I can see, he didn't breach any explicit rules, and 'I'm calling a mistrial because you broke some rules that aren't actually rules' is a terrible idea & precedent. I think as long as there is an argument to be made in favour of the accused's innocence, then the judge can allow a trial by combat, and the weaker that argument is, the worse the judge looks by permitting it. That's what I thought before, but the prior posts make clear that *no matter how cut-and-dried the evidence*, a noble may call on a trial by combat. That is what the right of trial by combat *is*. And the trial by combat's legitimacy rests solely on the belief that it reflects the will of the Seven - it's not *supposed* to be 'the strong can get away with anything'. If you are saying a trail by combat - again, *which cannot be denied to a noble* - gives the 'wrong' result, you are either saying the entire institution has no legitimacy (in which case, there's no issue with making this the first application), or you are saying 'The Seven will this, but I will otherwise'. |
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Post by Father on Apr 15, 2019 10:25:37 GMT 1
There's a lot of people who very much would like to declare mistrial and do it "properly", but the way the laws goes, no.
The earlier trial we had also did have an example of the adjudicating lord tipping the scales by allowing the duel to occur on foot for the benefit of Ser Dagos, although since he technically selected the champion (if memory serves), he could probably enforce that. Or at least banish Balon from Highgarden if he decided to come mounted.
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OOC IV
Apr 15, 2019 11:28:20 GMT 1
Post by Roland Cordwayner on Apr 15, 2019 11:28:20 GMT 1
There's a lot of people who very much would like to declare mistrial and do it "properly", but the way the laws goes, no. The earlier trial we had also did have an example of the adjudicating lord tipping the scales by allowing the duel to occur on foot for the benefit of Ser Dagos, although since he technically selected the champion (if memory serves), he could probably enforce that. Or at least banish Balon from Highgarden if he decided to come mounted. That seems to match the setting for me too - grim but that's the way Westeros is. When my other ideas were posted I'd missed the dramatic resolution.  As noted here by Father (http://greatbastards.boards.net/post/20318/thread) this also helps stoke up some anti King Daeron feeling, which is useful. |
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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Apr 15, 2019 14:25:01 GMT 1
If you are saying a trail by combat - again, *which cannot be denied to a noble* - gives the 'wrong' result, you are either saying the entire institution has no legitimacy (in which case, there's no issue with making this the first application), or you are saying 'The Seven will this, but I will otherwise'. I think there’s room for nuance in here as well. If someone is caught openly rigging a trial, it doesn’t mean that the institution is illegitimate, just that an outcome that involved cheating is. While there might not be a codified law laying out Trial by Combat or that striking your opponent’s horse is against the rules, every knight *knows* that such things are not permitted. At the same time, we also need to remember that the king is an absolute monarch. If he wanted to arbitrarily execute Rennifer and seize Merryweather lands for himself, he can, but generally kings that make habits of such things, don’t get to do them for long or without consequences. They also rub away at the veneer of civility and lawfulness that helps hold together a feudal society. As Daeron sees it, Rennifer is such a villain of low status that he deserves arbitrary punishment, not a trial by combat. He also sees such outright cheating at his trial as evidence that he’s guilty and that the king’s verdict is a confirmation his weakness and that the king doesn’t understand knights and their culture. He probably would’ve reacted better to someone like Aegon IV showing strength and just ordering a public execution and calling it a day. Also, Daeron is not an ACLU lawyer. |
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Post by Father on Apr 15, 2019 14:35:52 GMT 1
Dishonorable is not the same as disallowed. And a knight is a knight, the law doesn't make a difference between Rennifer and Daemon (but most lords sitting in judgement probably will).
Though most knights would agree that it's better to die with honor than live without (at least until it's their life on the line).
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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Apr 15, 2019 14:38:14 GMT 1
Dishonorable is not the same as disallowed. Spoken like a true Dornishman. |
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Post by Roland Cordwayner on Apr 15, 2019 14:56:30 GMT 1
As Daeron sees it, Rennifer is such a villain of low status that he deserves arbitrary punishment, not a trial by combat. He also sees such outright cheating at his trial as evidence that he’s guilty and that the king’s verdict is a confirmation his weakness and that the king doesn’t understand knights and their culture. He probably would’ve reacted better to someone like Aegon IV showing strength and just ordering a public execution and calling it a day. Also, Daeron is not an ACLU lawyer. Cackle at the very idea of Daeron being an ACLU lawyer. Also, good to see another nudge towards Daeron's potential "Punisher" path, while simultaneously confirming his political beliefs. While my previous suggestion of a trial by Seven was written in the mistaken belief the Daemon v Rennifer duel hadn't taken place yet I now heartily suggest it for his inevitable future crimes. Some poor fool would have to try to tanks Rennifer's attacks admittedly, but I doubt he'd be able to find a squad of allies of even half his competence, so one knight could try to hold him off while everyone else cleans up whatever trash he brings with him. Or he might not even be able to find six allies willing to die for him, effectively making him guilty. Yay justice?  |
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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Apr 15, 2019 15:00:00 GMT 1
You assume that he's going to make it long enough to get another trial? I hear there's a melee in his future.
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Post by Father on Apr 15, 2019 15:07:05 GMT 1
Behind the scenes, Lord Eldon is probably telling Rennifer to keep a low profile in the future.
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Post by Laena Pyre on Apr 15, 2019 15:09:54 GMT 1
Just to head off if a whole bunch of Fire folk feel like dropping disposition towards me because of what I said: unless you have Awareness 5 (need passive Awareness(Empathy) of 20), my shock and confusion seem entirely genuine, rather than a deliberate attempt to misconstrue what Ser Daeron said (and well, like I said, it *is* a reasonable interpretation of the ultimate meaning of his words).
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Post by Trystane Sand on Apr 15, 2019 16:52:27 GMT 1
Dishonorable is not the same as disallowed. Spoken like a true Dornishman. How very dare you, Ser.  |
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Post by Roland Cordwayner on Apr 15, 2019 22:00:56 GMT 1
Yeah, probably best to run it as Roland spending some time in the maester's care and the first vigil thread could perhaps be recycled into lighting candles and praying for his safe recovery if PC's want. You should go confirm in the OOC thread that we're doing this (and tell people whatever you feel like letting them know). Roland Cordwayner returns, as Father and I have decided to retcon his duel and treat it as a live test of Beserker and NPC balancing (both of which are now altered). We're sorry for the disruption and any plans that were altered, best suggestions on our part: - Roland and Sandor still knocked bells out of each other, with Sandor helping sway the trial against Abelar but Roland degrading Sandor stats as previously noted. - Vigil threads recycled in to similarly themed threads while Roland lingers on death's door. - Most of the IC references to Roland's death remain in place - lots of people will believe him dead or likely to die of injuries - news travels poorly in Westeros and is often confused. This helps preserves various rumours, Lord Ilyn Cordwayner's motivation in the OOC fiction etc. - The odd OOC reference to Roland's death should be ignored. We're hoping this minimises disruption to existing posts. Mistakes are made but can generally be rectified when we talk them through. |
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Post by Balon Blackbriar on Apr 15, 2019 22:08:21 GMT 1
Look everyone! It's Benjen Stark from the TV show. Only took you 6 seasons to show the fuck up!
Welcome(?) back.
I'm going to leave my fluff in place. Balon preferred you dead. Now with you alive he can be a little bitch about it IC.
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Post by Mikel of Harroway on Apr 15, 2019 22:13:55 GMT 1
I am happy to see him back. |
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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Apr 15, 2019 22:15:19 GMT 1
Wow. Rude. See if I ever throw a funeral for you again.
But seriously, welcome back to the land of the living, Ser Roland the Revenant. Hopefully you'll be like Titus and your near-death experience brings you over to the right side.
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