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Post by Roland Cordwayner on Apr 14, 2019 21:19:46 GMT 1
If Roland had lived, Ilyn's squire would have told him what Ilyn had said earlier that day that would make the official explanation for Ilyn's death seem highly suspicious. Giving him cause to put them to use. If he had lived. Now the "would have been used" Blood Points are floating around waiting for something to attach themselves to. That's disappointing, having worked hard IC and OOC for those points and spent them, being told OOC they would take effect later to better suit the narrative. Between a near automatic defeat in a fatal duel with no opportunity to yield, faction points spent not yielding anything and narrator override on Roland's fate in his fatal duel, I feel like I had almost no influence on how things played out and lots of things I put months of time and effort in to came to nothing despite generally good IC results and helping out on rumours and piloting NPCs OOC. This is frustrating and saddening.
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OOC IV
Apr 14, 2019 21:44:44 GMT 1
Post by Father on Apr 14, 2019 21:44:44 GMT 1
I am not entirely sure how that could have been solved differently, direct action like straight up ambush/murder/kidnap is easier to justify for expenditures, get a band of sellswords together to do the job. If one wants to get someone sent to the wall or something by walking the straight and narrow path, that's trickier, especially when there's no law against sleeping with your brother's wife. Now, since in my head I knew that Maegelle would burn a DP to slink away from her well deserved fate, and that would transpire in a manner to open up an opportunity to honorably nail Normyn, that was how I sketched it out in my head, I can't really think of anything else that would allow such a thing to happen, though it probably exists.
My thinking here is that these points will now bobble around to aid the efforts of whoever would wish to pick up Roland's torch, and a few NPC's have received nudges to set them on that path.
Sandor's stats was a mistake (as was berserker), now hopefully rectified.
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OOC IV
Apr 14, 2019 21:57:39 GMT 1
Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Apr 14, 2019 21:57:39 GMT 1
Could we have the Fire and Blood thread stickied to the top so it's easier to find, especially as it's a season-long thread?
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Post by Laena Pyre on Apr 14, 2019 22:17:05 GMT 1
Given how it has become more relevant, I'd like a fairly unbiased primer on Trial by Combat.
The way I understood it was that nobles have the right to trial by combat where there is doubt as to their guilt or innocence. Basically saying 'The Seven know I did not do this act'.
The Rennifer situation confuses me, because I cannot see a way in which Ser Daeron is not flat-out *right*. By the way I saw things, the King would have been well within his rights (in fact, would have *been* right) to say to Ser Rennifer 'there is no doubt as to your guilt when so many noble eyes, including my own, saw it happen right in front of us. Your request of a trial by combat is denied.'. Lord Eldon is a big fish in the Reach, but there's no reason I can see for the *King* to play softball with House Merryweather.
I feel I'm missing something.
*
While I don't want to get in the middle of the Roland conversation, I will note that I'm about 95% sure (IC and OOC) that Maegelle ordered Ashara's assassination, meaning, if I am right, I am going to be going after her *hard*. Very likely, if an NPC doesn't pick up on that evidence, I will.
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OOC IV
Apr 14, 2019 22:18:42 GMT 1
Post by Roland Cordwayner on Apr 14, 2019 22:18:42 GMT 1
I am not entirely sure how that could have been solved differently, direct action like straight up ambush/murder/kidnap is easier to justify for expenditures, get a band of sellswords together to do the job. If one wants to get someone sent to the wall or something by walking the straight and narrow path, that's trickier, especially when there's no law against sleeping with your brother's wife. Now, since in my head I knew that Maegelle would burn a DP to slink away from her well deserved fate, and that would transpire in a manner to open up an opportunity to honorably nail Normyn, that was how I sketched it out in my head, I can't really think of anything else that would allow such a thing to happen, though it probably exists. My thinking here is that these points will now bobble around to aid the efforts of whoever would wish to pick up Roland's torch, and a few NPC's have received nudges to set them on that path. Sandor's stats was a mistake (as was berserker), now hopefully rectified. Thanks. It would have been reassuring to have struck this kind of tone in the previous post (without needing this full and helpful summary as such things take time), rather than the "out of luck" tone of the previous post. This may be a language barrier issue or cultural thing. Might be a good use for Roland's squire, Hugh Blackwood if he sees Lord Cordwayner's murder and can then inform Redtusk. Gets the same result via a different route. Reassuring to hear Sandor and Beserker were a mistake, but sadly too late for my character and time. I hope the other PCs benefit at least.
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OOC IV
Apr 14, 2019 22:25:38 GMT 1
Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Apr 14, 2019 22:25:38 GMT 1
Perhaps Master Hugh Blackwood would benefit from being elevated to PC status? *Hint hint*
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Post by Roland Cordwayner on Apr 14, 2019 22:33:52 GMT 1
Given how it has become more relevant, I'd like a fairly unbiased primer on Trial by Combat. The way I understood it was that nobles have the right to trial by combat where there is doubt as to their guilt or innocence. Basically saying 'The Seven know I did not do this act'. The Rennifer situation confuses me, because I cannot see a way in which Ser Daeron is not flat-out *right*. By the way I saw things, the King would have been well within his rights (in fact, would have *been* right) to say to Ser Rennifer 'there is no doubt as to your guilt when so many noble eyes, including my own, saw it happen right in front of us. Your request of a trial by combat is denied.'. Lord Eldon is a big fish in the Reach, but there's no reason I can see for the *King* to play softball with House Merryweather. I feel I'm missing something. * While I don't want to get in the middle of the Roland conversation, I will note that I'm about 95% sure (IC and OOC) that Maegelle ordered Ashara's assassination, meaning, if I am right, I am going to be going after her *hard*. Very likely, if an NPC doesn't pick up on that evidence, I will. Bouncing around ideas: - Ser Rennifer is stripped of his knighthood, as a knight cannot be denied trial by combat. Plays in to the Reach/Chivalry angle - King Daeron does the right/just thing, but some in the Reach spin it against him. "Going against sacred tradition" etc. - As the above, but King Daeron takes action without stripping Ser Rennifer of his knighthood. - A trial by Seven is called by the Crown, effectively sealing Rennifer's guilt as it is unlikely a depleted House Merryweather can find six men to die against the roll-call of champions the Crown is likely to be able to call on in this situation (as this outrage seems to have united Blood & Fire). "“If a cause is just, good men will fight for it. If you can find no champions, ser, it will be because you are guilty. Could anything be more plain?” - Prince Maeker, the Hedge Knight". This is a pretty clever political move and might be the kind of thing characteristic of the Blood faction, but let the Fires mumble a little about using such a maneuver to effectively deny a trial by combat? The wiki says "Knights, no matter their status of birth, cannot be denied a trial by combat" and cites "The Hedge Knight", but I couldn't find anything firmer than Prince Baelor's "“You have another choice, though,” Prince Baelor said quietly. “Whether it is a better choice or a worse one, I cannot say, but I remind you that any knight accused of a crime has the right to demand trial by combat. So I ask you once again, Ser Duncan the Tall—how good a knight are you? Truly?”" on a quick skim, can look more closely later (as Tolkien would write!) tomorrow if I find time. Cheers on Ashara investigation!
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OOC IV
Apr 14, 2019 22:34:36 GMT 1
via mobile
Post by Balon Blackbriar on Apr 14, 2019 22:34:36 GMT 1
The tough thing about PBP is deducing meaning/tone in written form. I remember playing with ze Germans awhile back and you'd think I was fire bombing Dresden with how they responded to me in OOC. The important thing is a willingness to explain your answers when asked.
As for Rennifer and Eldon I don't know shit about GoT/medieval law so while to my eyes how Rennifer doesn't lose a hand I'll never know maybe it's as simple as the Seven will judge and they decided a bitch (Lysette) needs to shut her mouth and Rennifer was their divine tool.
After all he beat a product of incest and the Seven aren't kosher with that last I checked.
I'm rambling because I have a 2 yr old sleepong on me so I'll stop now.
HOUSE CORDWAYNER FIRE FOREVER!!!
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Post by Father on Apr 14, 2019 23:06:13 GMT 1
Short version: 1. A noble cannot be denied a trial with the ranking lord (in this case king) sits in judgement. 2. A noble cannot be denied to have the matter settled by swords.
The Hedge Knight offers a good example where you can beat up a prince in front of the royal guard and you still get to claim trial by combat (although granted, said prince was about to kill the offender on the spot).
It also offers a good example of how one could play hardball, it's called trial by seven, but possibly the last time that happened was Maegor the cruel vs Faith Militant. Most people thought that Daemon would win, and he probably would have if Rennifer had fought honorably.
I'm also trying to build up some IC justification for why quite a lot of people doesn't like having Daeron on the throne and would prefer Blackfyre, even though they mostly love the peace and prosperity his reign brings, they just take that peace and prosperity for granted. That and idolizing glorious battle. Although that's mostly added after most of the posts in this little subplot had been written. You might recall that it was Lysette stringing the king along with her accusations that even brought the charge of assault in the first place. Daeron had simply demanded that the duel be fought with longsword on foot and decreed that Rennifer isn't welcome at Summerhall anymore.
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Post by Addam Velaryon on Apr 14, 2019 23:08:42 GMT 1
This is just the results of a system that is design to benefit those with the martial talent to hold there own. In a perfect world, trial by combat is something a noble can rely upon to stand up to tyranny and injustice and the seven would help them. This isn't a perfect world were only honorable, just knights use trial by combat. In the show Tommen bans trial by combats with the rational that nobles abuse it to escape justice With Dunk and egg, Dunk clearly beats the shit out of Prince Aerion. While he was doing the right thing, attacking a member of the royal line is a crime, so in a sense he also abused that system. King Daeron in a lose lose situation. Taking any further action will make him look bad. Accepting the results of a corrupt system, he still looks bad. Daemon fought honorably, but Rennifer fought to win. Edit: Father touched on all of these points while I was typing this.
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OOC IV
Apr 14, 2019 23:13:46 GMT 1
via mobile
Post by Mikel of Harroway on Apr 14, 2019 23:13:46 GMT 1
This would be a perfect time to demand a trial of seven on seven though right? This trial if seven was a mistrial by way of abuse of rules, so taking it to a higher and more decisive court via the Trial of seven? (Thats probably not what its called. Im speed posting at work. But you all get me!)
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Post by Daeron Wildfyre on Apr 14, 2019 23:29:45 GMT 1
I would assume that a Trial by Seven is no longer an option. Even Westeros probably has a concept of double jeopardy.
I also really appreciated the lose-lose setup of it all. The king’s “weakness” continues to fulfill Daeron’s confirmation bias.
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Post by Addam Velaryon on Apr 14, 2019 23:38:38 GMT 1
This would be a perfect time to demand a trial of seven on seven though right? This trial if seven was a mistrial by way of abuse of rules, so taking it to a higher and more decisive court via the Trial of seven? (Thats probably not what its called. Im speed posting at work. But you all get me!) I don't really think there rules in this sort of combat, kinda highlights the flaws of "this only works as intended in a perfect world". See Tyrion's first trail by combat at the Eyrie. Rennifer just a less likable Bron
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OOC IV
Apr 15, 2019 4:09:39 GMT 1
Post by Lynesse Daverhyl on Apr 15, 2019 4:09:39 GMT 1
You can't appeal a decision to a higher court than the king's justice without reinstituting the faith militant. Perhaps Septon Abelar can make some hay here.
Having said that if participant was held to have breached implicit or explicit rules to such a trial, then that would be grounds for a mistrial [e.g. cheating]. I would expect more militant/chivalrous characters to speak in favour of that in this instance. A judge could even declare the outcome legitimate, and then attaint Rennifer for his ignoble conduct.
I think as long as there is an argument to be made in favour of the accused's innocence, then the judge can allow a trial by combat, and the weaker that argument is, the worse the judge looks by permitting it. Perhaps an argument of provocation could be mounted in Ser Rennifer's defence, albeit a very weak way based on the lady's fair sex, higher rank, presence at a royal feast, and the essential truth of her words. By allowing the trial, King Daeron is admitting that there is enough doubt that the matter can be settled before the gods, which should rightly anger those who see the matter as cut and dried.
That's my reading of things.
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OOC IV
Apr 15, 2019 5:11:09 GMT 1
Post by Septon Abelar on Apr 15, 2019 5:11:09 GMT 1
So it looks like there's another crowd event. Any requests?*
Now that I'm rehabilitated, I probably shouldn't go for the full incitement to homicide.
*-requests will be reviewed after my AFK this week.
Regarding Roland, is there any chance we could get a Shiera Seastar or Lord Rivers to give him the ol' breath of life?
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