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Post by Septon Abelar on Dec 21, 2018 22:58:42 GMT 1
"The Faith does show consideration, though it does not buy salvation, nor escape from sin. Many gifts are accepted each year at the Starry Sept, some ambitious and some modest. The stewardship of the church requires upkeep, and the friends of the Church are instrumental in meeting the need." In truth, it was more complicated. Some septons were outright corrupt, arranging weddings and so forth under uncouth circumstances in return for coin. Undoing a marriage is even harder, requiring the High Septon, but even that is not always out of reach for the truly devious, if various histories are to be believed. But as a matter of course, many donations are rewarded with small indulgences, such as use of the Starry Sept for certain functions, blessings upon family members, and so forth.
Abelar's contempt is reserved for bribes in service of sin. Donations in service of elevating a good man, a man of promise . . . that is a different thing.
"Luckily for us, my own abilities put me within reach of the goal. I require a boon, not a patron." It was several shades paler than the truth. Abelar had been denied ascension to the Most Devout before, and that was before he became known for inciting riots.
One final note on the Most Devout: it's up to you how many of them there are. The canon names eight of them, all in King's Landing, during the War of the Five Kings. The book says they have Status 4.
I've taken the liberty of assuming some of them also serve in Oldtown, as that is the historical power-center of the Church. I've also been assuming that there are maybe thirty or forty of them, which makes Abelar's ascension a bit of a reach under the circumstances, but also not totally insane. We could shrink their number to make it an even loftier goal, or inflate it to make it more plausible. Their only real power is electing a new High Septon, and even then they often have their hand forced by the crown or by other forces (e.g. the sparrows). By custom, the High Septon is chosen from among the Most Devout, but it's not a requirement.
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Post by Father on Dec 22, 2018 22:18:05 GMT 1
"I should think that after recent events, there would be more resistance than usual?" Marq is careful not to contradict Abelar too much. "As I said, I know little of these things, but that suggests to me that the most Devout have a preference for quiet orthodoxy, men that are competent enough that they do not make messy mistakes that would bring attention to their work, but neither do they like men that call attention to themselves for voicing strong opinions" If anything that sounded like a meritocracy of mediocrity, send noisy men with uncomfortable opinions to backwaters. That would break the spirits of most men of ambition, but not Abelar's apparently. Interesting. All men seems small from a distance, but small men can cast very large shadows.
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Post by Septon Abelar on Dec 27, 2018 5:57:08 GMT 1
"Some are as you say, as chaste in matters of opinion as they are in matters of the flesh. But not all." Abelar seems eager to get to Lord Durwell's other point. "To be sure, if Lord Leo's headsman shortens me tomorrow, that will put an end to my chances. I do not believe that will happen. In any case, even the dullest of the Most Devout understand that in times of upheaval and rebellion, it will not do to allow the church to be helmed by lackwits and cowards. Bold times require bold hands to guide the church through this turbulent time."
It is true that some in the cloth favor advancing the milquetoast over a more competent choice. But dithering will do us no good in the times ahead, and not all of the Most Devout are such lumpen turds.
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Post by Father on Dec 27, 2018 14:46:04 GMT 1
"History is shaped by the bold men that overcame the myriad challenges offered by the resistance of those who do not like change" Marq observes. "The bold ones that failed have no say in how history will remember them, if they are mentioned at all."
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Post by Septon Abelar on Dec 27, 2018 20:34:30 GMT 1
"Then watch and learn, my lord. See if I can overcome the headsman's block on the morrow, and you will know which sort of man I am."
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Post by Father on Dec 27, 2018 21:16:59 GMT 1
"A man that can talk the masses into marching with such fervor would be able to play the audience in the Grand Hall to pressure Lord Leo into yielding to it's demands of seeing you walk free" Marq comments. "Though I hear whispers of a petition to Oldtown, a Tribunal of the Seven Stars to be convened, headed by one Septon Roswyn, I cannot quite remember where I have heard that name, but it is somehow familiar to me." Roswyn had recently been appointed as head of The Starry Sept, the tribunal is an old holdover from times long passed, when The Faith might have expelled kings from The Faith, and once forced a sinful Gardener Princess to walk through the streets of Oldtown, naked and hairless as her nameday. Now it only tries septons. "Men speak of a bid to have you expelled, I know not what that truly means, I believe Septon Murmison was torn apart by a mob after a fortnight, but that is probably not a part of such punishment" Expulsion would simply be the denial of taking part in any of the rites of The Faith, entering the grounds of septs and for a septon, styling himself as such and offering sermons. Until such a man had repented for his sins, he was a nobody, once upon a time, even the titles of lords and knights were suspended, a powerful incentive to have them repent as quick as they could for fear of their titles meaning nothing if they took a while to be restore.
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Post by Septon Abelar on Dec 29, 2018 0:54:41 GMT 1
Abelar is quiet for a moment.
Roswyn is more politician than septon, but I can't let Durwell know that. They're too alike and he would have no use to assist me. Roswyn is a hell of a man to be judging me . . . I thought he was posted at the Sept of Baelor, but it seems that fate is not kind today.
"I know the man. His command in matters of justice is not strong."
That motherfucker ruined me once and won't hesitate to do it again.
So in the canon, the right of the faith to try their own was stripped by Jaehaerys along with the dissolution of the Faith Militant, but the canon doesn't specify whether it was ever restored. I think I even may have written in some stuff by Abelar agitating for its reinstatement.
Are we assuming that this tribunal is (a) part of a long-ago reinstated practice of the faith trying their own; or (b) a new practice invented specifically for trying Abelar?
Separately, there's also the issue of being tried twice for the same crime. Maybe we could say that the faith lost the right to be the SOLE triers of their own, meaning that lords get the first bite at the apple? If not, Abelar could argue that Tyrell has already punished him. Also, if we choose option (b), it would be extremely ironic for Abelar to spend his career arguing for the faith to try their own, only to see himself be the first defendant-priest.
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Post by Father on Dec 29, 2018 1:34:19 GMT 1
"The same could be said of a great many lords." Marq notes. "Though lords usually become so by way of being the firstborn son of the firstborn son, a septon is appointed to a position, elected even, at least for High Septon, I would think the likelyhood that a lord of rank is a fool is much higher than it is for a septon of rank?"
It's specifically Lord Hightower that allows The Faith to issue justice in his name when one of it's members stands accused, so it only applies to septons committing crimes in Oldtown Generally septons doesn't get accused of crimes very often, and odds are that they consult with the Hightowers before deciding, so it's more some symbolic remnant of a once powerful body. The Faith has no more right to sit in judgement as the local lords allows them to. Most lords prefers to not share power, smart ones will consult with The Faith, but not give them any formal say.
Lord Tyrell is the one that determines whether you broke the king's laws or not, what The Faith can do is to strip Abelar of his rank as Septon (which Lord Tyrell cannot do). They could also expel other people from The Faith, which they won't because that will just be a symbolic gesture without bite that would just piss off the nobles.
Presumably Abelar would have heard that the most recent addition to the primary NPC's got a new posting, I took certain liberties with fitting that character to what I have in mind for the follow-up.
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Post by Septon Abelar on Dec 29, 2018 2:00:58 GMT 1
"Oh, he is no fool. He has many talents, justice not among them. This deficit may be particularly acute in my case, should Roswyn bleed nostalgic for the name that traded away for a white robe and crystal. The name of a house that I long served, but have now grievously wronged."
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Post by Father on Dec 29, 2018 17:16:42 GMT 1
"Justice by the laws of men is a peculiar thing, it is what the lord sitting in judgement says what it is, or which champion is the most skilled, most fortunate or most favored by the warrior's guidance, one of those." Marq does not seem to think that the gods has a habit of intervening in a trial by combat for either side. More than one septon had difficulty explaining how King Maegor the Cruel emerged the only survivor of his own trial of seven. "Lord Bryce thought me that a wise lord should not only weight a man's crimes on the scales, but also consider the wider consequences, would his judgement appear to be just? Suppose, septon, that a man beloved by the people were accused of murder and the people refuse to believe that he did so, no matter how strong the evidence might be. If the most trustworthy of witnesses could give believable accounts, that the bloody dagger were found in his hands. And yet, if this man hangs, there will be riots and hundreds die. Should the man be hung anyway? Or would it not be wiser to compromise with the letter of the law in order to keep the peace?"
"Command of justice, you say? I wonder, septon, is justice not like a sword? A sword is forged to protect the faithful against those who would do them harm, or so I remember the Seven Pointed Star, as a boy I much preferred the parts involving violence, so I think I remember it right. But a sword can be used to harm the faithful just as easily, a man's command of it may be strong or weak, but whether he chose to protect or harm has little do with it, a man with a strong command of his sword can be equally well able to do both. The same is true of justice, I think, a man might have a strong command of justice, but subvert it for his own ends rather than be guided by The Father, no? So is this Septon Roswyn a man with a weak grip on the sword of judgement? Or does he perhaps wield it well, but with ill intent and purpose?"
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Post by Septon Abelar on Jan 3, 2019 1:46:55 GMT 1
"Justice by the laws of men is a peculiar thing, it is what the lord sitting in judgement says what it is, or which champion is the most skilled, most fortunate or most favored by the warrior's guidance, one of those." Marq does not seem to think that the gods has a habit of intervening in a trial by combat for either side. More than one septon had difficulty explaining how King Maegor the Cruel emerged the only survivor of his own trial of seven. "Lord Bryce thought me that a wise lord should not only weight a man's crimes on the scales, but also consider the wider consequences, would his judgement appear to be just? Suppose, septon, that a man beloved by the people were accused of murder and the people refuse to believe that he did so, no matter how strong the evidence might be. If the most trustworthy of witnesses could give believable accounts, that the bloody dagger were found in his hands. And yet, if this man hangs, there will be riots and hundreds die. Should the man be hung anyway? Or would it not be wiser to compromise with the letter of the law in order to keep the peace?" "If a man is guilty, then justice requires retribution. No matter the cost to the peace. It is only through practice that lords and septons can teach the smallfolk that it must be so." He shakes his head. "To do otherwise would mean placing the mob in the seat of justice. Such a thing should only be a last resort, as it was in my case." It seems that the septon favors whichever judge will return the harshest penalty on the guilty--except in his own case, of course. No, the harshest judge is the Father Above, and I will answer to him at the end of it all. I must do right by Him."Command of justice, you say? I wonder, septon, is justice not like a sword? A sword is forged to protect the faithful against those who would do them harm, or so I remember the Seven Pointed Star, as a boy I much preferred the parts involving violence, so I think I remember it right. But a sword can be used to harm the faithful just as easily, a man's command of it may be strong or weak, but whether he chose to protect or harm has little do with it, a man with a strong command of his sword can be equally well able to do both. The same is true of justice, I think, a man might have a strong command of justice, but subvert it for his own ends rather than be guided by The Father, no? So is this Septon Roswyn a man with a weak grip on the sword of judgement? Or does he perhaps wield it well, but with ill intent and purpose?" "Justice is more like a map to be read, for a strong command of justice will lead one to know danger from safety, and call everything by its true name. Some men make up the map as they go, calling things by whatever name pleases them in their current situation." He does not say anything further regarding Roswyn, but the implication is clear. "A sword is a welcome companion to justice, but it is another thing altogether."
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Post by Father on Jan 3, 2019 17:32:19 GMT 1
"I see." Marq makes no point in arguing it further, besides the Septon had answered his question. If command of justice is the ability to stay true to the one and only righteous map, then this Roswyn is the sort to make up his own map. Making up one's own map is a good metaphor, he should write it down so that he can remember to use it in sometime in the future. "If this tribunal is to be called together, I hope I would have the opportunity to observe it's proceedings, I do so enjoy learning new things" That and taking the measure of powerful men. "If you would excuse me, septon, I have other duties to attend, but I should like to meet again"
I say call it a scene since this one is D11 and such.
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Post by Septon Abelar on Jan 3, 2019 18:13:48 GMT 1
[/scene]
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