|
Post by Aerion Flowers on Jun 29, 2019 20:38:07 GMT 1
Laena smiles proudly at his reasoning, broadening at his last paragraph. "Good, but incomplete. It's not just those with the *power* but those with the *inclination*. Honourable men will keep to their oaths in most cases. It is the dishonourable man who the King must appease, for their oaths do not bind them at all, merely the King's power and their fear of retaliation. The kind of king who appeases the corrupt and ambitious, like our father, has little to fear from rebellion; for those who would rebel are kept fat and happy. Contrarily, the King who tries to root out corruption has the most to fear, for it means that *all* those most likely to rebel all have strong motive to do so." She spreads her arms. "Hence, the situation we are in today. "Of course, should every King only reward ambition and corruption and ignore those who are honourable, it stands to reason that over generations, more and more of the realm would shift towards the former - either from accepting it as the way to get ahead, or simply through more men of that type being awarded more lands and power. And down that road lies total ruin." "By that same reasoning, would rewarding only honourable men not produce a similar reduction in corruption?" He asks, knowing it likely wasn't so easy as that. "I suppose more importantly, what should a king desiring to be 'Good' do, if one were to offer him advice?""All good questions to ask. Though perhaps phrased more diplomatically. When confronted with their hypocrisy, men have a habit closing their ears and their minds. Better if you simply guide them to the contradiction, rather than confronting them over it directly." "We are a brutish lot, at times" he says with a laugh. "But we both know I'm not the first choice for carefully navigating diplomatic waters. No, I'll stick with my blunt questions, at least to avoid anyone weaselling their way out of it with fancy wordplay."Laena raises an eyebrow. "I choose to interpret your words as hyperbole." She sniffs, but he can easily detect an undercurrent of humour in her voice. "But still, if you feel alive in the thrill of the relatively sanitised violence of the joust, I wonder how you will take to war, when it comes." Her tone seems musing, rather than expecting an answer. She smirks. "Assuming that's the type of 'jousting' you were referring to. If not, permit me to cover my ears and sing to myself for a bit." "A little bit of exaggeration hasn't gotten me into too much trouble. Although when it comes to actual war, I expect a much different experience. Hopefully we can put it off, but it's inevitably going to come all too soon."
"I didn't.. That's not what I meant." he says, suddenly feeling a little embarrassed. "I wouldn't mind hearing you sing though!"
|
|
|
Post by Laena Pyre on Jun 30, 2019 1:05:55 GMT 1
"By that same reasoning, would rewarding only honourable men not produce a similar reduction in corruption?" He asks, knowing it likely wasn't so easy as that. "I suppose more importantly, what should a king desiring to be 'Good' do, if one were to offer him advice?" "Oh?" She raises an amused eyebrow. "Expecting a royal audience in your future, are you? Anyway, as you well know, while only rewarding honourable people will have *some* positive impact, the main impact it will have is having immoral people be better at hiding their true nature. The issue is the race to the bottom augments man's inherent nature, while climbing to the top fights against it. Wherever there is a system, there is a man cunning enough to rig it to his benefit. "As for the King seeking to be 'good'? A lot depends on specifics, but in general: identify the most dangerous actors and make them yours. In this case, that would mean when King Daeron took over, he'd keep, say, Lord Gorman Peake and Lord Jon Hightower in their positions, and clear out the less-powerful figures, like Lord Levalle, who he doesn't need to worry about. Then, ideally, place those people - Lords Gorman and Jon in this example - where they're competing for the same power and influence - let them burn off all their energy scheming against each other, keeping them from scheming against you. If there's any rising threats, try and channel that threat towards your troublemakers - either your troublemakers will succeed, and deal with the rising threat, or they fail, and lose power and influence. It's a delicate political game, as you can't let them get too powerful, but that's the basic idea - play threats off against each other, rather than pushing them into creating a united front against you, which is what King Daeron effectively has done." "We are a brutish lot, at times" he says with a laugh. "But we both know I'm not the first choice for carefully navigating diplomatic waters. No, I'll stick with my blunt questions, at least to avoid anyone weaselling their way out of it with fancy wordplay." "Oh, believe me, a master of the art can dance out of the way of even the bluntest of questions. Unless they are your captive, and you're putting hot coals to their feet every time they don't give a straight answer, there's very little you can do to get a straight answer out of a crooked man." "I didn't.. That's not what I meant." he says, suddenly feeling a little embarrassed. "I wouldn't mind hearing you sing though!" Laena tips her head back and gives a full laugh. "Nice recovery! Could do with being a bit less flustered, though." She grins, amused.
|
|
|
Post by Aerion Flowers on Jul 3, 2019 16:10:46 GMT 1
Aerion dismissed the question with a wave of his hand. "I doubt I'll even have a royal audience, let alone be asked for advice. But I value your perspective on thing and, if I am to learn how to navigate the treacherous waters of politics, I'd prefer to have it before I'm already drowning."
"If such were the case, why has king Daeron allowed this to transpire? All reports indicate he's a learned man, quicker with a quill than a sword. It would suggest that he should be smart enough to understand what you've just told me, if he but heard it. So then who is advising him and why haven't they told him the same?"
Aerion makes a mental note that should he ever become in a position of power, be it Lordly or more, he'd have Leana hired as advisor before ever accepting the position.
|
|
|
Post by Laena Pyre on Jul 3, 2019 18:17:39 GMT 1
"I imagine they have." She puffs out a breath. "Understand that I am commenting about someone I've not properly met, nor likely ever will, so all this is just to the best of my intuition.
"Children - particularly first children - of parents with strong personalities tend to go one of two ways. Either they are subsumed by their parent, becoming a lesser copy, or they reject them utterly, defining themselves as being everything their parent is not.
"I think you can see where this is going." She notes wryly.
"So, King Daeron likely defines himself as being everything his father was not. For him to keep on *any* of the men close to his father would be antithetical to his very core. He was almost certainly advised to do exactly that, and refused point-blank. His morals tell him that they have to go, and he is a deeply moral man."
She sighs slightly. "If you want things to get worse, an evil man will do that. But if you want to destroy everything, turn to a truly moral man. For an evil man will compromise, because they believe in nothing save that they should have power. But a truly moral man has strong beliefs that he will never compromise.
"Even in the face of annihilation.
"Never compromise." As she finishes, her voice is soft, tired. It is clear her assessment gives her no joy.
|
|
|
Post by Aerion Flowers on Jul 17, 2019 5:55:16 GMT 1
"If he is so moral, why has he allowed those such as Lord Merryweather to strut about? Not to mention Lord Lothston.
Although the other edge to the sword is that Aegon IV made very few good choices. If Daeron is everything his father was not, then maybe he'll make many good ones instead. He has already done much."
Aerion thinks to himself that his sister was talking about her more than she thought, and figured she'd be having some internal conversation with herself to figure it out. Still, knowing he couldn't offer much in the way of reassuring words, he puts his arm around her shoulders and gave her a warm embrace, letting her stay for as little or as long as she'd like.
|
|
|
Post by Laena Pyre on Jul 17, 2019 18:48:40 GMT 1
Laena permits the hug. After a moment's hesitation, she rests her head in her brother's shoulder, her forehead to the side of his neck, letting his warmth comfort her, while attempting to quell the rising panic the comfort provided.
"'Morality' is a very personal thing. One of the key duties of a king is to uphold the rule of law. Our father didn't do that, so King Daeron feels that he must. Lord Eldon is a despicable being, but he has the wealth and power to ensure he never falls foul of the law.
"The argument is an ancient one - 'justice against law'. What do you do in those cases where the law falls short? Do you undermine the entire system that ties the Kingdom together by overriding the law in those cases? Yes, that solves that particular problem, but it sends the definite signal that the King considers the law ... flexible. And that is a very, very dangerous precedent for a king to set.
"So while, as a woman, I would feel relieved were the King to set aside law, and deal with Lord Eldon permanently; as a lady, I would be horrified at the unintended consequences of the act."
Finally, the rising panic becomes too much, and she gracefully steps back out of the hug, concealing her perturbation as best she can.
"The King may make good choices, or he may not. It could be he will make equally bad decisions in the opposite way. A King's legacy is defined by his times as much as his character. While he would never be remembered as a good man or King, even King Maegor the Cruel would likely not have anywhere near the reputation he has if he had lived in a time of stability, rather than frequent rebellion. Viserys the First ruled for over twenty five years of peace and prosperity, but a strong argument can be made that it was his incompetence which lead to the Dance of Dragons, which undid the good he did and more.
"Two very different men, in very different times, with very different morals, yet both caused disaster for the realm, either during their reign or right after. For all his good intent, there is no guarantee King Daeron will not join their legacy."
|
|
|
Post by Aerion Flowers on Jul 19, 2019 20:54:49 GMT 1
"I think that is the root of the issue for me. I believe I know what is right and wrong. But I'm sure most men consider themselves the protagonist in their own story. Few would admit themselves the villain."
"But the law is supposed to provide answers to the questions of what is right and what is wrong. If the actions of Lord Eldon are wrong in everyone's eyes, but he is not breaking the law, then clearly the law is not doing its intended task. It should therefore then be fixed. But that is a harder thing to do than say, and does pose problems if people see the law as flexible. But provided you remain consistent with the idea that any changes are improvements, and not only applicable in some cases, Daeron should be able to weather any storm that results."
Aerion pauses a moment to consider the last bit, before continuing.
"The same could be said for Daemon should his rebellion succeed."
|
|
|
Post by Laena Pyre on Jul 19, 2019 23:22:46 GMT 1
Laena sighs. "I hate to say this, since it's effectively defending a man I despise, but what has Lord Eldon actually *done*?
"He's - reportedly at least - raped quite a number of his smallfolk. But the overwhelming majority of knights and lords fuck their smallfolk. Sure, most of the time they use honeyed words and honeyed wine to get her to say 'yes' first, but that's the difference. One word. So, what happens if the woman says she never said it, but the lord said she did. Are we to take the word of smallfolk over lords, now? Maybe she only says she didn't say it so her husband doesn't cast her out into the street. Maybe she was paid by a rival lord to do so. There is no way to criminalise Ser Eldon's actions here without making most of the realm a criminal, too.
"He raped that serving girl from House Starling. Surely that's easy to criminalise, right? Except you run into the same problem. I'm not sure if he did, but let's say he says she consented, she says she didn't. Do you trust the woman? Over a lord? What if you get into a feud with another lord, and one of his smallfolk steps forward to claim you raped her? It's a lie, of course, instigated by the lord to make you look bad. But if we start trusting the word of those women, those kind of attacks will become common.
"Finally - off-hand, at least - his man Rennifer groped Lady Lysette in public, in front of countless noble witnesses. Finally! A clear crime. No problems, right? Except that Rennifer claims trial by combat. And, against all odds, wins. Why? Who knows. The Seven work in strange ways sometimes. So, what do you do? Do you make calling for a trial by combat conditional? Under what conditions? Who judges? By denying somebody the right to call on the Seven to judge them, you are implicitly asserting that the judgement of man is superior to the judgement of the Seven. I'm no septa, but I'm fairly certain that's heresy. It's the same case if you let a human decide if the result of a trial by combat gives the 'wrong' result. The only way around this is if you make the claim that a trial by combat does *not* reflect the will of the Seven, denying it any legitimacy and doing away with the entire institution. Which would be a *massive* break with tradition, and deeply unpopular with the martial knights, and probably the Faith as well.
"I've given it some thought, and yes, there are ways to change the law to criminalise what Lord Eldon has done. But in doing so, you'd create all kinds of ways for the new laws to be abused, which they would be. Almost certainly doing more harm than Lord Eldon could do in several lifetimes.
"Making the law flexible creates problems for the crown. Changing the law creates problems for the crown. There is no perfect solution. Anyone who claims everything will be fixed simply by changing who wears the crown is an idiot, or lying.
"Imperfect men cannot create a perfect solution. That is the realm of the Seven alone, and the Father's final judgement."
|
|
|
Post by Aerion Flowers on Jul 28, 2019 15:46:05 GMT 1
Aerion is almost lost for words, struggling to find the right way to frame his argument. The frustration is made worse by the fact that he thinks Leana is patronizing him a little bit, again showing him that his naive view of the world is in fact not in line with reality, despite his ideals.
"If it were an isolated case, one serving girl or maid, then of course the Lord get's the benefit of the doubt. He is after all a lord, and we can't go believing smallfolk over lords or as you say the whole system would devolve into chaos. But if a Lord is known to be a lecherous bastard, and many ladies both noble and not refuse to be near him, then there is clearly a kernel of truth to those suspicions. Plus, given that many knights, who have sworn to protet the defenseless and weak, have left his employ and refuse to serve him, lends even more credibility."
"And yes, there are those who still serve them, but we both know that not all knights are created equal. Some think that to become a knight they have to say the words, and that's it. But if you do not believe them, do not follow them with your every action, then you are not a knight. You are a cheat, a liar, and a freud. You are nothing."
Aerion's anger andthe focus in his eyes shows that he's clearly speaking about someone specifically, though they remain nameless in his rant.
"Trial by combat is integral to our society. It cannot be conditional as the will of the Seven is paramount, and that is the only way short of the Warrior telling us directly to know their will. It is not perfect, as you say, but it is what we have. It has the unintended consequence thta whoever has the best champion will be more free to be above justice, but there is always a day for every man to fall, even the best of them. So either you wait for them to fall themselves, or you find yourself a champion who can win your fight for you."
Aerion of course envisions himself being that champion, striving for perfection in combat so that he can face such heathens should the day come. And it goes without saying that should she need one, he would stand for her through anything. Leana has the suspicion that should Lord Eldon harm her, that the rules of the Seven might be bent and he'd find a way to kill Lord Eldon himself, regardless of the champion that stood in his way.
|
|
|
Post by Laena Pyre on Jul 28, 2019 18:07:04 GMT 1
"Mmm." Laena nods, misunderstanding his anger. "Believe me, defending that pig angers me, too. "Anyway, you are absolutely right in everything you say. Your *judgement* is entirely valid." She places special emphasis on the word with a twinkle in her eye. "But what should the *law* be? Should we make having a bad reputation illegal? Should we keep the existing system for the first nine accusations against a lord, and change it for the tenth? Considering that I could probably bribe ten peasants to come forward with the coin I have in my purse right now. Fifty? Maybe it should scale with the importance of the lord in question, as their enemies have more coin to throw around? Should we force knights wishing to leave their liege lord have to testify to their liege's liege as to the reason why? I'm sure that won't have unpleasant side-effects." She sighs, and folds her arms in front of her. "I'm not trying to be awkward. Like I said, everything you said *is* true. It's just worth understanding that trying to *fix* the problem is neither quick nor easy if you don't want to create more problems than it solves. It may not even be possible. Foolish lords can typically be caught out sooner or later one way or another, but Lord Eldon is as cunning as he is vast. He will always find a dark corner of the law to hide in. "I do blame the King for many things, but I don't blame him for that."
I know it's a typo, but a (half) Targaryen calling someone a 'Freud' had me in stitches.
|
|
|
Post by Aerion Flowers on Jul 28, 2019 18:53:06 GMT 1
Aerion sighs with the futility of it all. In part because he can never get his sister to just give him a straight answer in any sort of philosophical discussion, it's always 'yes, but', and in part because he knows she's right, which is even more annoying! Still, he sighs before continuing.
"I cannot accept that there is nothing we can do so we shouldn't even try. If we submit that the Gods in their wisdom have allowed Lord Eldon to do what he's done, then I must also believe that they chose me with my ideals in the hopes that I will change this world for the better. Else they are cruel for giving me a challenge which cannot be completed, and I refuse to believe they are evil in their designs."[/b] his frustration is becoming more evident, and clearly he'd like to be done with this line of thinking, since it will not result in him finding more clarity on what to do about the coming conflict.
"Maybe it's better that we find someone who is willing to go into those dark corners themselves and meet him where he is most comfortable. If you cannot win the battle due to the terrain, then make it so you fight elsewhere, to quote Lord Leo." he says, suddenly wondering if this is how Eldon will have to be dispatched
Oops, yeah that is quite entertaining!
|
|
|
Post by Laena Pyre on Jul 28, 2019 19:30:36 GMT 1
"Do you know why you shouldn't argue with an idiot?" She raises an eyebrow, but doesn't wait for an answer before continuing. "Because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." She pauses a moment for him to grasp the analogy she is going for.
"If you cannot win the battle due to the terrain, then you will not change the result by moving to terrain more advantageous to your opponent. You will only make it worse. The fewer rules there are in play, the *more* dangerous men like Ser Rennifer are.
"If I may say, there is a common flaw in many knights: hubris." She says, without a trace of self-awareness. "The belief that every problem *can* be fixed. Typically by swinging a sword at it often enough. What if I were to say that the Seven did not put Lord Eldon here to test your skill, but to teach you humility, and test your oaths? To show you, without a shadow of a doubt, the limits of mortal justice, so you can better appreciate the divine perfection of the Father's final judgement. After all, to truly appreciate justice, you have to understand just how *difficult* it is to achieve. Also, consider, here you are, a good and honest knight, considering throwing away your honour to face him on his turf. Even if you win, against all odds, do you think that a *victory*? Do you think there's a way back from that darkness? There is no such thing as a 'part-broken oath'. Oaths are chains good men bind themselves in to lock away the worst of their true nature. Once you've broken those chains, you may resume your old position, and even maintain it for a while, but with nothing holding you back any more, it will be only a matter of time beyond you move beyond what the chains would allow. Again, and again, and again. Each time, slightly more. Each time, for the best of intentions ... until it isn't."
She locks eyes with her brother, but her voice remains soft. "Keep your oaths. Stay in the light. Maybe the Seven will reward you with victory one day. But if they don't, understand that you have still passed their test, by resisting the temptation to fall. Lord Eldon may thumb his nose at mortal justice, but divine justice is not so easily avoided, and one day - may it be soon - he will *burn*, alongside our father. Forever."
|
|
|
Post by Aerion Flowers on Aug 11, 2019 2:02:52 GMT 1
Aerion smirk, having expected her analogy. A little ironic, Aerion notes, as their mother had used it more than once herself, though she talking about those she disliked in court. "You've misunderstood me, sister. I did not mean myself, though I appreciate your take on eternal justice. I'm glad at least some of our Septon's words found hold with your soul."
"I am not suited for such work, and indeed would be outclassed in dishonourable tactics. I'm speaking of someone else, who wouldn't be handicapped by such things as honour."
He pauses, feeling as if his sister might be proud of his line of thinking.
"Eldon might live at the depths of morality, but he is far from alone there. I can't imagine a man like him is the best at anything, and there is likely someone he has slighted, so there must be someone who could be used to defeat him at his own game. If we could convince someone else to take on Lord Eldon, either way the world becomes a better place without one of them. Better if they kill each other. But we need either leverage on them or a way to convince them without implicating ourselves."
"So who is in such a position?" Aerion asks his sister, following a new line of thinking that was quite a ways outside his normal.
|
|
|
Post by Laena Pyre on Aug 11, 2019 17:35:53 GMT 1
"You've misunderstood me, sister. I did not mean myself, though I appreciate your take on eternal justice. I'm glad at least some of our Septon's words found hold with your soul." Laena childishly sticks her tongue out at her brother's jibe. They'd trod this ground often enough over the years there was no point in repeating it. "I am not suited for such work, and indeed would be outclassed in dishonourable tactics. I'm speaking of someone else, who wouldn't be handicapped by such things as honour."He pauses, feeling as if his sister might be proud of his line of thinking. "Eldon might live at the depths of morality, but he is far from alone there. I can't imagine a man like him is the best at anything, and there is likely someone he has slighted, so there must be someone who could be used to defeat him at his own game. If we could convince someone else to take on Lord Eldon, either way the world becomes a better place without one of them. Better if they kill each other. But we need either leverage on them or a way to convince them without implicating ourselves."
"So who is in such a position?" Aerion asks his sister, following a new line of thinking that was quite a ways outside his normal. Laena actually raises an eyebrow and pauses for a few moments to give his suggestion serious consideration before answering. "The first problem is that anyone incompetent enough to be blackmailed or manipulated by either of us would be torn apart by the likes of Lord Eldon. I don't say this lightly, but I am significantly outclassed by him. Mostly because of the sheer amount of resources he can draw on, while I have ... well, you. Not that I'd want to exchange the two, but the knives are well and truly out at this point, so we need to be well aware of our limitations. "The second problem is someone like Lord Eldon is basically unblackmailable - he basically has *no* reputation to protect, so why would he need to go along with a blackmailer's demands? And he's cunning enough that manipulating him into a course of action without being caught would be all but impossible. The same would apply to anyone of equivalent character. "The third problem is that anyone cunning enough to face down Lord Eldon is cunning enough to do whatever it takes to *not* do so. He is a formidable foe. The only people who would willingly take him on are those with more honour than sense, like Lord Starling, who is completely unequipped for the battle he has chosen. "The fourth problem is that were Lord Eldon actually in serious trouble, pragmatic members of either faction would likely swoop in to rescue him, in return for him putting his vast weight behind their faction. "Having said all that, the basic idea of 'turn your enemies against each other' is a good one." She nods approval. "If I hadn't told you that exact strategy moments ago when discussing what the King *should* have done, I'd probably be impressed. "Still, let's ignore how impossible it would be for a moment, and discuss possible catspaws. Let's ignore anyone not from the Reach - the distances involved for, say, Lord Manfred Lothson to feud with him are too big to make it particularly credible. There are precisely two lords of principle houses sworn to Highgarden with enough of a reputation for cunning that they may - *may* - be able to present Lord Eldon with a challenge. Lord Gorman Peake, and Lord Reynald Florent. The former is far too focused on his rebellion, and won't let anything get in his way. There is absolutely no chance that he'd willingly push Lord Eldon into his enemy's hands. And Lord Reynald is far too cunning and cool-headed to pick a fight he doesn't know he can win. "Still," she concludes with an amused twinkle in her eye. "Apart from everything, that was a good idea."
|
|
|
Post by Aerion Flowers on Aug 14, 2019 17:08:38 GMT 1
"I think you don't give us enough credit. If we put our minds to it we could accomplish great things together."
"But it's not wrong to be cautious. The issue I have with your criticism is that it offers little in the way of hope. You cannot beat him in an honourable fight, so don't fight. You cannot fight him in a dirty fight, so don't fight. There has to be something that can be done to help the cause. We just need to figure out what that is."
"You're right that most men value their reputation and that can be a weakness to be exploited, as much as I hate to admit it. Lord Eldon doesn't care for his, but he is still a man and this still has wants. We need to figure out what it is he wants, truly needs, and then find a way to either take it from him or use it against him. We might not be able to be so direct as to take it away directly, but we can sure make it harder for him to achieve. A rich lord buying blackguards to stand in his place might be culled into behaving if his funds dry up or there are no more men willing to die for him.."
"As for getting help, well that is another matter entirely. Lord Eldon would get help because of his power and influence. To prevent him getting help, we would need to reduce one or both of those things. We need to put him on an island. So when the time comes he has no help to seek. so we either erode the relationships between those he would seek help from, or we make it more worthwhile for them to not interfere. Most lords would be happy to be paid to do nothing. Most of them are already!"
"I admit I am not a brilliant strategist. Lord Leo would attest that I spent more time chasing kitchen maids than paying attention to his general teaching me about strategy. But that doesn't mean I don't recognize that each obstacle you name will have a solution. We just have to be clever enough and creative enough to figure it out."
"If you're willing."
|
|