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Post by Lynesse Daverhyl on Sept 5, 2019 2:21:22 GMT 1
"And their descendants admired such savagery so much that they emulated it in their banners?" Lynesse's nose crinkled in disgust. "The Seven teach mercy do they not? And the codes of chivalry demand quarter be given to women and children." She shook her head in apparent confusion, musing, mostly to herself, "Perhaps the knight's oaths are worded differently across the Red Mountains."
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Post by Father on Sept 5, 2019 14:23:41 GMT 1
They are not worded differently, but some men see things more clearly than others, Lord Blackmont notes. He understands that Lady Lynesse is sympathetic to Ser Daemon's claim, however much Ser Daemon refuses to press it. But what if he did press it? What if he won? Has the young lady given any thought as to what will happen then? What must happen for his newly won seat to be secured? Ser Daemon undoubtedly would be appalled of it, but King Daeron must die, all his sons must die and all his grandsons as well. And the latter will remain children for many years. For good measure, such princesses as might yet carry a child also, not to mention any offspring of the princess consort of Dorne, hmm?
The details are lost to myths and legends of course, but Lord Blackmont assumes the truth to be as simple as so, eradicate the children of your enemies and there will be no more generations to fight. Fail to do so, whether hindered by one's own gallantry or ability, and their sons and grandsons will come back for what they see as theirs.
Does my lady think that the likes of Gormon Peake and Bittersteel have not thought this through and concluded that this grim task would fall to them to arrange behind the back of their desired king? The Seven Pointed Star has many fine words to say about gallantry, but those who care to live by them without question will always be stepped upon by those who do not let such a code get in the way of that which would safeguard one's desired future. That is the reality, one might chose to live by the holy commands of gallantry, but the sons of such men will live in a world shaped by other men's fathers to the benefit their own sons. And in that world, the sons of the chivalrous will be ripe victims for having everything taken away by the sons of the ungallant, especially if the sons takes after their fathers as they often do.
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Post by Lynesse Daverhyl on Sept 6, 2019 14:00:32 GMT 1
Lynesse pondered Lord Blackmont’s questions, for they were not without merit. Queen Nymeria faced a similar quandary when the Rhoynar first seized Dorne, did she not? King Benedict Blackmont and his peers among the Andal Kings of Dorne all held claims that preceded hers by centuries, and yet their lines were not extinguished, and their royal personages were sent to the Wall rather than the Headsman’s block. The wall, holy orders, the citadel, and marriage into the ruling line all offer alternatives to the future you augur.” She replied to the central thrust of his argument, ignoring his jibe about sympathy for Ser Daemon.
You say that the chivalrous will live beneath the heel of the ruthless, and yet the Blackmonts bend their knee to the Martells, who spared them as they would not have been spared in turn, and who have earned centuries of vassal service as a result. Perhaps if the ancient Blackmonts had spared more of their defeated foes, they would have had the armies and allies to repulse the Rhoynar when Nymeria landed. We in House Daverhyl may be of more humble origin than the Blackmont Kings, but even we know you cannot grow crops in lands you have salted," she looked over to Ser Eustace at this remark and smiled, as though to include him in a familiar jest.
And when the Targaryen’s forge their bonds with the realm, they do so with Houses Penrose, Dondarrion, Arryn, and Dayne,” Lynesse notes, saving the Dornish house for last, and thinking perhaps that there might be some rancor there for Lord Blackmont." In selecting their royal matches, they have favoured houses with a reputation for chivalrous deeds, though the gods alone know what lurks in the hearts of men,” she added, acknowledging the reality that the face and the heart were often poles apart.
If your thesis holds true, and ruthless ambition trumps chivalry, then why has House Blackmont been overlooked in favour of Dondarrion and Dayne?" She asked, picking houses near enough in peerage to House Blackmont that the question could not simply be waved off. Why is the future of the sons of House Blackmont likely to be shaped by theirs?
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Post by Father on Sept 6, 2019 18:35:42 GMT 1
It so happens that no man before Daeron of House Targaryen could properly style himself king of Dorne other than merely adding the claim behind his name. Fowlers, Yronwoods, Daynes have laid claim to all of Dorne, as have others, but it was the Martells who first subjugated all rivals, and styled themselves princes, though they might as well be kings. It has been the way of things, one petty king forcing another to give up his crown, in exchange for keeping his former lands by bending the knee, promise tithes and fealty, and king becomes lord. When Blackmonts bowed to Martell, then Blackmonts bowed to Martell. The allegory here would be another Martell claiming the right to Sunspear and the title of Prince of Dorne. Feuds within the family happens to be the ugliest kind.
If Martells had not spared Blackmonts when they bent their knee, why would any other Dornish house bother to do the same? And not even the Targaryens, not even when they had dragons, could keep their realm together when all the lords decided that their allegiance was not to King Maegor, the threat of The Black Dread no longer sufficient to cow them. It is easy enough though, Dondarrion's are in the Stormlands, and the Dayne's is a house of greater import, and they do have the right color of eye and hair. The availability of pretty brides also played it's part.
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Post by Lynesse Daverhyl on Sept 7, 2019 6:02:07 GMT 1
I think you are splitting hairs to say that Nymeria’s mercy is inconsequential because she vassalised House Blackmont, for surely the Blackmont kings of old had this option with the babes they killed. But if you must reject my analogy, then let us try a more direct one: The Dance was a Targaryen civil war, and legitimacy and peace was established by intermarriage of the two lines, rather than the extermination of either one. When men sought to secure the succession by misdeeds, such as the assassination of Prince Jahaerys in the Royal Palace, they achieved nothing but further feuding and vendettas. Ultimately, kinslaying weakened the claims and reputation of all claimants, and weakened the house more than any marriage agreement at the outset would have.
“I will accept,” Lynesse acknowledged, framing her word carefully, “that those who seek power will not find it through the knightly vows, save by the gods’ will. But neither will they find it in their public repudiation such as your house sigil. Chivalry and honour inspire trust, loyalty, and alliances, while their repudiation inspires deception, mistrust, and internecine conflict,” again Lynesse glanced at her uncle, though this time there was not smile upon her face.
To say the Dayne’s are of greater import is to beg the question my Lord. Surely they are of greater import because of their reputation, because they are known for their knights and their Swords of the Morning, while Blackmonts are associated with their schemes and their Vulture Kings. If the sons of the ruthless are to have power over the sons of the chivalrous, then your daughter would be a Princess of House Targaryen, and not a Lady of House Gargalen. The personal attack was sudden, cloaked as it was within broader commentary on House reputation and historical matters. It was a shot in the dark based on her interactions with Trystane, but she though her chances good of achieving some manner of reaction from Lord Blackmont. Surely there was some personal animus, some seed of bitterness that so many Marcher Lords had been privileged and aggrandised while House Blackmont had been passed over.
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Post by Father on Sept 8, 2019 14:35:21 GMT 1
If Lord Harmen remembers his history, there were only Aegon III and Jaehaera left after the music came to an end, save for Aegon's half-sisters and a brother unaccounted for. The killings had by then been carried out whether by happenstance, assassinations or executions. Though one should recall that Aegon the elder had intended for his nephew not to father any children, and his last command was to cut off his ears.
House Dayne has twice the lands of House Blackmont, and that has little to do with how the houses were founded, and more to do with where the Gods saw fit to create mountains and deserts and throw stars with wondrous metals inside.
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Post by Lynesse Daverhyl on Sept 10, 2019 6:25:39 GMT 1
"And what reward did Aegon the Elder reap for such ill-use of his own kin, save his own untimely end? It seems to me that men who sully themselves with such ways scarcely avoid it more than those who do not. Indeed their violent delights often have violent ends."
At Lord Harmen's explanation of House Dayne's greater resources, Lynesse laughed merrily, a laughter not unlike the merry gurgling of a stream as it cascaded over some woodland falls "As the advocate of honour and chivalry, I had presumed it would be I that would be the first forced to invoke the unknowable and ineffable wisdom of the gods to explain the unfairness in the world, my Lord. How wrong I was! Perhaps then we should care neither for honour nor ruthlessness, and replace every house sigil with a Far-Eyes or Myrish Lens, that we might better scour the heavens for the next sign of divine favour, for what use is a man wits next to a lump of previous metal?"
Lynesse paused again to measure the weight of his case, though this time she was less sympathetic, feeling that she had perhaps found an opening, "Or perhaps I should accept the case you press on its merits, my Lord, and agree with your supposition that the Blackmonts could never be expected to measure up to the likes of House Dayne in any season, or under any manner of leadership?"
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Post by Father on Sept 11, 2019 16:54:31 GMT 1
It sometimes happens that exceptional men can accomplish exceptional things, or have dragons, dragons always helps. But most times, their sons and grandsons fails to maintain what they have built. But sometimes it lasts. The Lannisters displaced the Casterly's, Blackmonts kept their grasp on their newly taken holdfast that even the memory of it's previous name has faded. History only tells us the consequences of the actions taken, not what they might have been if the choice was made different. Lord Harmen speculates that perphaps the Casterly's were all out of sons, and that Lann's clever trick was to marry the daughter and rename the house after himself? If Blackmonts were faced with sons only...then that option would not have been available.
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Post by Lynesse Daverhyl on Sept 21, 2019 8:40:53 GMT 1
"And do we not live in exceptional times, where the fortunes of men and houses alike will be made or sundered? In such times, the vulture might choose to clear the skies for fear of Dragons on the wing, or take to the air, in search its next meal."
"Those with twice the lands of House Blackmont, royal matches, and lumps of stars to their name cannot make such choices, for they are bought and paid for, and by all reports already suffering as a result. They lack the opportunity to test the direction of the wind and seek more suitable climates. Perhaps they are like those you speak of, lesser sons due to stride into ignominy as their name declines. Or perhaps they will limp on, and the next generation will recover and burn all the brighter, forcing their neighbours once again into the shadows as they are ever rewarded for leal service and chivalry.."
Her countenance brightens as she reasserts a pleasant and idle courtesy, "I do thank you for sharing your sigil's history Lord Harmen. I do find the ways of Dorne to be complex and exotic, and often far richer than they appear at one's first glance."
[possibly /scene for me, unless Harmen or Eustace choose to react in a significant way to Lynesse's provocation]
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Post by Father on Sept 21, 2019 22:21:40 GMT 1
Are they? Suffering? Aside from Lord Walgrave killing their son, that is. And the murder of their niece at Summerhall. It would seem war has begun, but save for the wholesale slaughter of House Targaryen to end the trueborn line in one stroke, what does my lady think will happen? Bittersteel and Fireball might win The Reach to their side, they might subjugate the Trident, perhaps the Westerlands, perhaps the Crownlands and The Stormlands. Perhaps. But wherever they leave their soft southern belly exposed, Dornish Spears will be to draw blood from it, and then disappear. And the Riverlands are easy to conquer, but near impossible to hold against invaders, and The Starks will come, and The Arryns will come, the rebellion will break, long or short, does not matter, attrition wins war, not valor, but northrons never learn. The Rhoynar raid, loot and pillage, but never cares to conquer. The Andal marches it's armies through the Prince's Pass to "once and for all bend and break the Dornish", The Rhoynar sends an army more to encourage The Andal to proceed into the desert than to actually stop it.
So dear young lady, the vulture is like to gorge itself upon delicious Pike and oak nut when this is all over.
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Post by Lynesse Daverhyl on Sept 22, 2019 12:19:46 GMT 1
“Like as not, you are correct, Lord Harmen, and Lord Gormon and his kindred have erred. Surely they have underestimated the loyalty of such outlying provinces as Dorne, The North, and The Vale? Surely they would not have guessed that Dornish houses would march in strength to safeguard the Targaryen dynasty, when but a generation ago they were sworn enemies, and proudly independent.”
“Surely Lord Gormon and other rebels have erred in thinking that once proud lords of the red mountains would not jockey for the privilege of licking the boots of a Targaryen princeling, simply because of his mother’s bloodline. Especially when that princeling will ensure generations of royal decrees in favour of his mothers line at at the expense of their rivals in Dorne. Surely Lord Gormon and his conspirators did not presume such proud lords of the Red Mountajns could be bought so cheaply, as many would count the gold and silver of plunder as little more than a pirate’s lucre, or the trinkets of an especially lavish whore.”
“But that is the foolishness of men like Lord Gormon, Lord Harmen, who presume in others the ambition and pride they themselves possess.” She leaned in closer, conspiratorially. “We know better.”
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Post by Father on Sept 22, 2019 22:37:03 GMT 1
Lord Harmen appears to find the exchange quite amusing, though smile he does not. Above all, a Rhoynar does like to raid throughout The Reach, such ripe and juicy pickings to be had.
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